19840228 City Council MinutesFebruary 28, 1984 - Work Meeting
The, regular meeting of the Edmonds City Council.was.called to order at 7:30 p.m. by Mayor Larry
Naughten in the Plaza Meeting Room of the Edmonds Library. All present joined in the flag salute.
PRESENT
Larry Naughten, Mayor
Jo -Anne Jaech
Jack Wilson
Laura Hall
John Nordquist
Bill Kasper
Steve Dwyer
Lloyd Ostrom
Brian Stewart, Student Rep.
STAFF PRESENT
Jim Adams, City Engineer
Irene Varney Moran, City Clerk
Art Housler, Finance Director
Steve Simpson, Parks & Recreation Director
Bobby Mills, Acting Public Works Supt.
Mary Lou Block, Planning Director
Jack Weinz, Fire Chief
Jim Jessel, Property Manager
Mark Eames, City Attorney
Jackie Parrett, Deputy City Clerk
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CONSENT AGENDA
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Items (E), (H), (I), and (J) were removed from the Consent Agenda. COUNCILMEMBER HALL MOVED, SECONDED
BY COUNCILMEMBER OSTROM, TO APPROVE THE BALANCE OF THE CONSENT AGENDA. MOTION CARRIED. (Councilmember
Kasper was not present for the voting on any of the Consent Agenda items.) The approved items on
the Consent Agenda included the following:
(A) Roll call.
(B) Approval of Minutes of February 21, 1984.
(C) Acceptance of Quit Claim Deed for right-of-way (Hutchinson).
(D) Approval of purchase of artworks for City's portable artworks collection.
(F) Authorization to accept utility easement (Strickland).
(G) Final approval of 6-,lot plat at 18924 88th Ave. W. (B.id.arca Estates/P-4-82).
AUTHORIZATION FOR CITY ATTORNEY TO PREPARE ORDINANCE TO REVISE SECTION 18.95 OF THE COMMUNITY
DEVELOPMENT CODE [Item (E) on Consent Agenda]
Councilmember Jaech did not think this was an appropriate item for the Consent Agenda. She said the
Council previously stated this should go to the Planning Board for hearing, recognizing that changes
to Title 18 are not required to go to the Planning Board. She noted that the cover memo stated the
only changes proposed were the sizes of parking stalls, but in fact, there were several other changes.
Councilmember Ostrom had thought it would be fairly straightforward, but he had received a call by
someone who was concerned.about going to smaller stalls. Another suggestion he had been given was
that since this section was being revised some consideration should be,given to a definition of
guest parking stalls. He thought this should be given a hearing. COUNCILMEMBER JAECH MOVED, SECONDED
BY COUNCILMEMBER OSTROM, THAT ITEM (E) BE REFERRED TO THE PLANNING BOARD FOR A PUBLIC HEAPING.
MOTION CARRIED.
PROPOSED RESOLUTION 581 SETTING DATE OF MARCH 20, 1984 FOR HEARING ON VACATION OF A
PORTION OF 68TH AVE. W., BETWEEN MEADOWDALE BEACH.ROAD AND 174TH ST. S.W. (ST-4-83)
and
SET DATE OF MARCH 20, 1984 FOR HEARING ON APPEAL OF HEARING EXAMINER DECISION REGARDING
A VARIANCE TO STREET LANDSCAPING REQUIREMENT AT 23125 HIGHWAY 99 (V-19-83/BUTLER)
and
SET DATE OF MARCH 20, 1984 FOR HEARING ON PROPOSED AMENDMENT TO MEADOWDALE MORATORIUM
REGARDING SUBDIVISIONS [Items (H), (I),.and (J) on Consent.Agenda]
Councilmember Jaech stated that the information being provided when.a hearing date is proposed is
not adequate because the Council President does not know what the time frame is for setting up that
hearing. She said she should know the last possible date that the hearing can be held so when there
are full agendas proper scheduling can be accomplished. She noted that if these three items were
added to the March 20 agenda there would be five hearings for that meeting: City Clerk Irene Varney
Moran said she needs 13-14 days lead time for posting and.publishing the hearings. City Attorney
Mark Eames advised that Item (H) must be heard no sooner.than 20 days or later than 60 days after
the passage of the resolution. COUNCILMEMBER JAECH MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER HALL, TO PASS.
RESOLUTION 581, WITH A HEARING DATE OF APRIL 17, 1984. MOTION CARRIED.
COUNCILMEMBER JAECH MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER DWYER, TO APPROVE ITEM (I) ON THE CONSENT
AGENDA. It was the consensus that this date would be scheduled as proposed, but that there would be
the possibility that on the night of the,hearing it may be continued, depending on available time
that evening. MOTION CARRIED.
Regarding Item (J), Councilmember Jaech proposed that.it be tabled as the Council was not ,yet ready
to take action regarding the moratorium. Councilmember Dwyer said this had been discussed at the
Community Services Committee meeting, and the committee decided to wait until after the Meadowdale
meeting before making a decision in order to get input from the people who live there. COUNCILMEMBER
JAECH MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER HALL, TO TABLE ITEM (I) UNTIL THE MEADOWDALE PROJECT PROCEEDS
AND THE COUNCIL HAS MORE INFORMATION. Councilmember Hall noted that the contractor is not ,yet
mobilized and the soils are not stable. Mr. Adams responded that every day he receives calls from
people in that area who ask when the decision will be made, and he would only like to be able to
tell them when -the Council will discuss it. Councilmember Nordquist had discussed this with Dr.
Hyatt of the Snohomish Health District who indicated that under the current program Edmonds is not
to issue any.permits but if the.cgnstruction is started then it will be under a new program. THE
MOTION CARRIED, WITH COUNCILMEMBER DWYER VOTING NO, SAYING IT IS NOT A PLAN.
At this time Mayor Naughten suggested moving Item 5 on the Agenda, the discussion on the 1�oodwav
fire service contract, to follow Item 2. COUNCILMEMBER HALL SO MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER
OSTROM. MOTION CARRIED (Councilmember Kasper not present).
PRESENTATION OF CERTIFICATE OF CONFORMANCE IN FINANCIAL_ REPORTING
Jim Bannerman, representing the Municipal Finance Officers Association of the United States and
Canada, made the presentation of the.Certificate of Conformance in Financial Reporting to the City
of Edmonds. He noted that this is the third consecutive year.that Fdmonds has received this award,
which is rather rare. He also noted that this certificate is an accepted qualifier for bond ratings.
He presented the award to Mayor Naughten who thanked him and commented that Edmonds is one of only
four cities in Washington who received this award and it reflects on the Finance Department and its
director, Art Housler. Mr.. Housler added that it is reflective of the work put.in by his accounting
personnel, Jeff Ristau, Elaine Werner, and Conni Curtis. (During this presentation Councilmember
Kasper arrived, at 8:00 p.m.)
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February 28, 1984 - continued
DISCUSSION ON WOODWAY FIRE SERVICE CONTRACT
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Fire Chief Jack Weinz and Finance Director Art Housler discussed the proposal from Woodway, noting
that Woodway Councilman Brady -had indicated that the contract charge should be based upon building
values instead of total property values and that total costs be distributed on the basis of one-half
population and one-half building values. Chief Weinz and Mr. Housler were concerned about that,
saying the fire protection Edmonds offers is not just for buildings but for all property including
forest, vehicles, etc., and,also that'it di,ffer.s from.Woodway's originally expressed desire of
sharing costs equally on a partnership basis which is.consistent with the method used by all govern-
mental agencies in charging its citizens. They reviewed their recommendation which eliminates the
10% charge, provides credit for the previous year's actual cost, and distributes the cost equally to
Edmonds and Woodway on the basis of total property values. This was their definition of an equal
partnership. They provided comparative figures of .the Edmonds.proposal and the Woodway proposal and
explained the computations. The total figure proposed by Edmonds for 1984 was $57,932, which Mr.
Housler noted is $7,000 less than Edmonds' original proposal, and he said he thought this was
equitable and consistent with the partnership concept which Woodway expressed a desire to have. The
$7,000 reduction was the result of eliminating the 10% surcharge and giving them prior year's
credit. The Woodway proposal was $41,946 based on population and building assessed value ratios.
Mr. Brady said there was. a difference of opinion as he thought population to be an important issue
and that it should be included. Councilmember Kasper felt that assessed value is the fairest way to
do it and.that fire departments run on the property protected rather than on number of people
involved, and.he said the assessor gives depreciated value also. He thought the total real estate
value is the basis used throughout the State. Councilmember Nordquist asked if the storage tanks
next to Twin Maples are included (Standard Oil tanks), and Chief Weinz said they are. COUNCILMEMBER
NORDQUIST MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCI'LMEMBER OSTROM, TO AUTHORIZE THE -NEGOTIATORS -TO. -USE THE "EDMONDS
PROPOSAL" AS PROVIDED IN THIS EVENING'S PRESENTATION. MOTION CARRIED, WITH COUNCILMEMBER KASPER
VOTING NO. Councilmember Kasper said he thought it had been well established that a premium should
be charged for services provided outside the city because there are spin-off costs, so he thought
the 10% surcharge should be imposed.
FINANCE COMMITTEE MEETING
(A) Authorization to Write Off Delinquent Accounts. Finance Director Art Housler had presented
a schedule of 18 accounts, totaling 6,837.70, which he felt should be written off as efforts to
collect had been unsuccessful and it did not appear to be worthwhile to proceed through the courts.
The Statute of Limitations had run on some of the larger accounts and legal costs. would exceed the
amount owed on some. The accounts had related to repair of'damaged fire hydrants, water lines,
water meter boxes, and traffic signs. COUNCILMEMBER JAECH MOVED, SECONDED FOR DISCUSSION BY COUNCIL -
MEMBER HALL, TO AUTHORIZE WRITING OFF THE LISTED ACCOUNTS. Councilmember Hall was concerned that
Apex Garbage Co. was on the list and it serves residents in the City and she had experienced personal
problems with their accounting. It was also noted that Tri-State Construction was on the list, and
they are the contractors doing the Meadowdale sewer project. After some discussion, COUNCILMEMBER
JAECH AMENDED HER MOTION, ACCEPTABLE TO THE SECOND, TO WRITE OFF ALL OF THE ACCOUNTS EXCEPT THAT OF
TRI-STATE CONSTRUCTION BECAUSE IT IS UNDER CURRENT CONTRACT WITH THE CITY, AND THAT THE CITY ATTORNEY
LOOK FURTHER AT THAT ACCOUNT. MOTION CARRIED.
(B) Discussion on Local Real'Estate Tax for General Capital Improvements. Finance Director
Art Housler noted that the State Legislature in 1982 had eliminated mandatory land development fees,
but to compensate for the loss of that revenue it provided for a tax of 1/4 of 1% on real estate
sales --but imposition would require passage of an ordinance and use of such revenue is restricted tc
capital improvements. He recalled that imposition of the tax had been briefly.discussed by the
Council in the 1982 budget process., but it was generally opposed, some Councilmembers feeling that
sales would be impeded because property market values in Edmonds already were much higher than in
adjacent areas. He suggested that this source of revenue be reconsidered because of the City's
funding needs for improvements, particularly streets. He noted that in the Puget Sound area only
three cities have not levied this tax --Everett, Kent, and Edmonds. He noted that tremendous popu-
lation growth is expected in the next six or seven years but after that this source of revenue may
be reduced to a minimum. Based on 1983 figures and on what Mountlake Terrace and Lynnwood have
brought in by this tax, he estimated that Edmonds could bring in $135,000 annually. Councilmember
Dwyer asked what percent of that would be single-family homes, and Mr. Housler did not have that
figure but said he would look into it. He also noted that during the last three years Edmonds had
lost approximately $65,000 annually in park fees. In answer to a question, he said $580,000 was
derived from the equalization tax in 1983.. Councilmember Ostrom did not think any taxes should be
raised and he did not think it'was justified to impose this tax on people who are buying property.
Councilmember Kasper observed that this tax is due from.the seller and the buyer can pay it by
option, but in most cases it is paid by the seller, but that does not mean it is not passed on to
the buyer. He.said he is troubled by going for a tax unless there are specific criteria as to the
need. He noted that the park fees have been lost and that there is pressure to do things in the
downtown which.will cost money, but he thought whether a base should be set for recreation could be
discussed at a retreat. He was concerned that a tax such as this would be for an improvement such
as the pool, noting that the library -was done with the utility tax and now that tax is reduced and
it is being paid for from the general fund. Council President Jaech tabled this item since the
Council did not want to take any action at this time.
(C) Discussion on Funding Water Loop Through Union Oil Property. Fire Chief Jack Weinz
displayed a drawing of the existing water main and the proposed loop and expressed concern that the
loop be installed. In the event that the existing line should break or be in need of repair there
would not be any'supply of City water to suppress a fire. The.. question was how to fund this $57,000
project.' The Port has refused to participate in,an LID on the basis that the easement it has
provided is equal to its share and Union Oil Company refuses to participate in any funding unless
the Port does. Finance Director Art Housler indicated that the City has only two funding alternatives:
(1) The City Council order the formation of an LID, or (2) The City Council authorize funding of the
installation -from the Water Sewer Construction Fund 412. He recommended the second option based on
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February 28, 1984 - continued
the faith and cooperation shown by Union'Oil Company, the.fact.that the Port is adamant in its
position, the. City could be liable in the event, of'a.disaster,.and"there is unallocated money
available. He requested that if the Council agreed"with his recommendation that authorization be
granted to contract with an engineering consulting "firm.fo,r desi.g.n. City Attorney Mark Eames noted.
that if an LID should be ordered the Council.would.want to,preclude the. Port',s being able`'to .protest
it, so there would have to be a finding that there is a health and safety probl:em., He asked for
time to examine the situationto advise them more fully..'There was.a request to see the minutes of
when Union Oil annexed to see if`the Council made any statement.that the City would provide the
loop. Chief Weinz recalled that it was indica'ted'to the Washington,,State Rating Bureau by letter.
Councilmember Jaech asked for a copy of that letter.a.s well as -anything in the Council minutes, and
she asked Mr. Eames to let them -know what they would have to do to declare a safety situation. She
asked if -there was anything in writing from the Port to indicate there is a safety problem. COUNCIL -
MEMBER JAECH MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER NORDQUIST,,.TO DISCUSS.THIS FURTHER AT THE WORK MEETING
OF MARCH 27, 1984. MOTION CARRIED. COUNCILMEMBER.KASPER THEN MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER
OSTROM, THAT THE ENGINEERING BE INITIATED.IMMEDIATELY. Councilmember.Jaech asked if it could be
stated at a later date that the engineering costs go on the LID, and she was told it could. THE
MOTION CARRIED. A recess was announced.
REVIEW OF ALL FEES CHARGED BY CITY" ..
Most of the Councilmembers did not;have with them the'information previously provided them regarding
fees. THEREFORE, COUNCILMEMBER NORDQUIST MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER DWYER, TO CONTINUE THIS
ITEM TO MARCH 27, 1984. MOTION CARRIED.
MAYOR
Mayor Naughten requested a resolution for vacation of right-of-way at 12th Ave. and Puget Dr. This
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will be an exchange of property and.this action.was decided in.the Executive Session which preceded
this meeting.
Mayor Naughten commented that the program, last Sunday,.i.n honor of,Rosalynn Sumners was outstanding,
and he thanked everyone who participated. He thought the City of Edmonds could be proud of this
event.
Mayor Naughten announced that he will'attend'the National League of Cities conference in Washington,
D. C., March 2-7, and that he has been asked to serve on the Policy Committee.
Mayor Naughten requested confirmation of his appointment of Mark Eames to the MEBT Committee,
replacing Wayne Tanaka. Further, he said Pat LeMay.and.Art Housler were previously appointed to
that committee and he'asked for confirmation of his reaffirmation of their appointments. COUNCIL -
MEMBER JAECH SO MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER DWYER, MOTION..CARRIED..
Mayor Naughten asked for rescheduling of the',Publ.ic Safety,Committee on March:6. It is scheduled to
meet at 6:30 p.m., and he requested that'"it be delayed until 7:00 p.m. and that at 6:30 p.m. the
Council interview two candidates -for appointments to: boards,,one.to the alternate position on the
Planning Board and one to the. Board of'Appeals as Paul Nolan has resigned. That was satisfactory to
the Chairman of the Public Safety Committee and to the Council.
Mayor Naughten'advised that a ceremony had been held for 35 employees with perfect attendance in
1983 and that the record is getting, better each.vear., He. was requested to provide the Council with
a list of those employees.
Mayor Naughten asked Fire Chief Jack Weinz to give a brief summary of the Fire Department activities,
which he did.. Councilmember Nordquist then asked about the.budgeted firefighter for which money had
been placed in the Council Contingency Fund and when.that person would be hired. Mayor Naughten
responded that he plans in April to bring that to the Council in the discussion of reorganization as
it was included in the $110,000.budgeted. Several Councilmembers indicated they had expected a
firefighter to be hired sooner than that, and it was r.equested.that the minutes be pulled to clarify
that.
Mayor Naughten had a letter from Delores Uhlman, Assistant Principal of Edmonds High School, advising
that Edmonds High will clebrate its Diamond Jubilee in May. He thought the City should participate
fully in this event. COUNCILMEMBER NORDQUIST MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER DWYER, THAT MAYOR
NAUGHTEN BE NOMINATED AS THE CITY'S REPRESENTATIVE BECAUSE HE GRADUATED'FROM EDMONDS HIGH SCHOOL.
MOTION CARRIED.
COUNCIL
Council President Jaech proposed several changes to upcoming agendas to distribute the hearings more
evenly as several agendas were too full. COUNCIL PRESIDENT JAECH MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER
OSTROM TO MOVE THE HEARING REGARDING THE SAILOR'S RESTAURANT SIGN FROM MARCH 27 TO APRIL 3. MOTION
CARRIED. COUNCIL PRESIDENT JAECH MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER HALL, TO MOVE THE HEARING ON THE
APPEAL OF THE EDMONDS NATIONAL BANK SIGN FROM MARCH 6 TO.APRIL 3, AND TO CLOSE THE APRIL 3 AGENDA.
Council President Jaech said it would be advantageous to the bank if this were delayed until the
Council hears from the Planning Board. Councilmember Ostrom said that has nothing to do with Sign
Code questions. Councilmember Dwyer noted that the Planning.Board on March 27 wi.11 have various
proposals for the Sinn Code and, he thought it seemed.orderly to delay anything having to do with
those things. Planning Director Mary Lou Block said one of the items is regarding height on attached
signs. THE MOTION CARRIED. COUNCILMEMBER DWYER MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER JAECH TO MOVE THE
DISCUSSION OF EMERGENCY DISASTER SERVICES FROM APRIL 3 TO APRIL 10. MOTION CARRIED.
Council President Jaech noted that her term as Council President will be complete at the end of the
month so election for Council President should take place. COUNCILMEMBER DWYER MOVED, SECONDED BY
COUNCILMEMBER OSTROM, TO NOMINATE COUNCIL PRESIDENT JAECH TO SERVE ANOTHER TERM. COUNCILMEMBER
KASPER MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER WILSON, TO NOMINATE COUNCILMEMBER HALL. Councilmember Dwyer
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stated that when they discussed this at the Mayor/Council Workshop he had expressed the opinion that
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February 28, 1984 -.continued •
this is not a ceremonial position but is a position of substance and that Councilmember Jaech is the
most capable person and he will vote for her. Councilmember Wilson asked if that was in spite of
what the Council had set up in the past, and Councilmember Kasper said it was the intent that unless
somebody could not serve this position would go in turn to the Counci.1members._ Councilmember Nord-
quist-said he had served twice because he served first as Mayor Pro tem and then it was decided to
have "a Council President and he also served as Council President. He noted.that one of the things
it depends on is who has the time to do it. Councilmember.Wilson.said. it.appea.red that Council -
member Hall should be the'next.person in line. Councilmember Hall..said she i.s willing.andready to
serve and had thought that would.be the sequence and she would like to take her turn. Minutes were
cited wherein .this had been discussed and, although former Councilmember Gould had noted that this
would be an orderly way to.do it, it had not been a Council action by motion. Councilmember Kasper
said he had raised the question of the Council presidency because the term keeps getting farther
away from January. He .said when this office was formed there was a general consensus that it would
be a hand -down situation unless somebody did.not.want.it or did not have the time to do it. COUNCIL -
MEMBER KASPER MOVED, SECONDED "BY COUNCILMEMBER NORDQUIST., THAT.THE NOMINATIONS BE CLOSED AND THAT
THE 1984 TERM OF THE COUNCIL PRESIDENT,WILL.BE FROM MARCH 1, 1984 TO JANUARY 1, 1985. MOTION CARRIED.
A ROLL CALL VOTE WAS'TAKEN ON THE NOMINEES, WITH COUNCILMEMBERS DWYER, OSTROM, JAECH, AND NORDQUIST
VOTING FOR COUNCILMEMBER JAECH, AND WITH COUNCILMEMBERS WILSON, KASPER, AND HALL VOTING FOR COUNCIL -
MEMBER HALL. COUNCILEMBER JAECH WAS RE-ELECTED TO THE POSITION OF COUNCIL PRESIDENT.
Councilmember Nordquist noted that Personnel News,had commended .the City.of,Edmonds.for.its.special
hiring program, the Public Service Projects program. He also noted that there will be a seminar in
Yakima on labor relations April 12-13, and he suggested that someone attend it, possibly the Personnel
Director.
Councilmember Nordquist apologized for not attending the Rosalynn Sumners tribute, saying a physical
problem kept him away.
Councilmember Ostrom said'he thought that was an excellent function and he extended thanks to the.
Mayor and everyone else who worked on putting it together.
Councilmember Kasper reported on last week's Community Services meeting,and,'regardi,ng,the.Community
Development Code Section 18 changes, said they felt these should be .discussed by the Council before
referring them to the Planning Board. They had questioned whether the one on alleys had to go to.
the Planning.Board because it was largely.definition. They thought the grading section should go to
the Planning Board. They felt it important to set forth why the Council, is sending these to the
Planning Board, either by committee action or by Council statements. He still thought the committee
should make recomendations. Councilmember Dwyer said that before the things.get on a Consent Agenda
the committee thinks they should go to the committee and then there willl be a better cover memo on
what the issues are and at least three Councilmembers will.be able to discuss them.
Councilmember Kasper noted that he had sent a memo to the Council and to the Mayor regarding moving
of the Council office. He was concerned about moving it, expecially to the proposed location.
Mayor Naughten said another proposal.is now being.considered,and he.will get back to the Council on
it. Councilmember Kasper saw no need for a conference room in that smaTl'building, and Mayor
Naughten responded that there is.justification for it and.he,•will give the Council a.memo on it in
two weeks.
Student Representative Brian Stewart commented that only about 15% of the peope at the Rosalynn
Sumners tribute were youth and there was a conspicuous absence of her. peers.. He.speculated on
reasons for this and expressed a'concern. He then provided to Councilmember Hall a report he had
prepared regarding graduation requirements. This was input for the school district committee on
which she serves.
Councilmember Hall said the school district had sent a letter regarding formation of an -arts -council,
and she'suggested that the Council President respond.
Councilmember Wilson added his thanks to the Mayor and staff for the tribute_ to.Rosalynn Sumners,
saying it was an outstanding effort on the part of the City.
Councilmember Dwyer suggested that in future years.the Council agenda take into considerati.,on the
State caucuses and that provisions be made th,at Council meetings are not scheduled on those nights
so people are not prevented from attending them. The Council.agreed and.thought the March.13 meeting
could.be,rescheduled. COUNCILMEMBER KASPER MOVED,.SECONDED'BY COUNCILMEMBER WILSON, TO CHANGE THE
REGULAR MARCH 13 COUNCIL MEETING TO A SPECIAL MEETING ON MONDAY, MARCH 12, IF THAT IS SATISFACTORY.
TO THE EDMONDS CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND EDMONDS BUSINESS ASSOCIATION WHO ARE SCHEDULED'TO MEET WITH
THE COUNCIL THAT NIGHT. MOTION CARRIED.
Councilmember Dwyer said he is really impressed with how fast Council Resource. Person Jo Pendergast
provides him with the information he requests. He felt this is an excellent service to th.e Council.
There was no further business to -come before.the,Council., and the.meeting,adjourned at'10:20 p.m.
IRENE'VARNEY MORAN, Cit2oClerk LARRY S. NATJGHTEN, May r