REVISION 4-DC2-Domestic service upsize emails-10.09.2017.pdfFrom: Rick Tomkins
To: McConnell, Jeanie
Cc: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz (aivarez(cemeraldcitveng.com); Don Cunningham; Dealt' Etter; Tim Dickerson
Subject: FW: 50 Pine Street water servicer issue
Date: Monday, October 9, 2017 2:25:37 PM
Attachments: image002.png
image003.png
RE 50 Pine Street Point Edwards.msa
FW 50 Pine Street Building 10 Water Meter.msg
Jeannie - Please read below and also the attachments for history and discussion related to water
service design. Emerald City indicates 6" building connection is necessary to limit flow velocities per
plumbing code; also max flow of 185 gpm, based on total fixture units, is within 2" C2 operating
parameters. Please ask Operations to review/approve this design change.
Thank you,
;.7
From: Giovanni Juarez-Ortiz[mailto:gjuarez@emeraldcityeng.com]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:34 PM
To: Rick Tomkins <RTomkins@triadassociates.net>
Cc: Don Cunningham<dcunningham@ventureseattle.com>; Dealy Etter
<detter@ventureseattle.com>; Tim Dickerson <tdickerson@good manre.com>; John Toman
<jtoman @emeraldcityeng.com>
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street water servicer issue
Rick,
Sorry I misspoke, the peak flow does not equal every fixture being on simultaneously, but rather the
maximum flow determined by the Hunter's curve based on the total number of fixtures. Either way,
the peak flow will never be reached and exceed the meter's intermittent flow.
Thanks,
GIOVANNI JUAREZ-ORTIZ I MECHANICAL
Emerald City Engineers, Inc. 1 6505 216th Street SW, Suite 200, Mountlake Terrace, WA 98043
T 425.741.1200 1 F 425.741.12011 www.emeraldcityengineers.com
From: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:22 PM
To: 'Rick Tomkins' <RTomkins(@triadassociates.net>
Cc: Don Cunningham<dcunningham(@ventureseattle.com>; Dealy Etter
<detterPyentureseattle.COm>; Tim Dickerson <tdickersonPgood man re.com>; John Toman
(jtoman(@emeraldcityeng.com) <jtoman(@emeraldcityeng.com>
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street water servicer issue
Rick,
I looked at the files we sent out and the 4" water supply must have been a preliminary size. Ever
since the pricing set from 10/22/15, a 6" water connection has been shown on the plans, even for
permit resubmittals. Attached is the site plan from the pricing set. (Note: the flow rate decreased
from 235 GPM to 185 GPM due to building revisions). The 6" connection is required based on the
manufacturer's recommendation to not exceed a velocity of 5 ft./sec.
Looking at the water meter specifications, the 2" meter can handle intermittent flows of up to 200
GPM as shown below. Our peak flow is 185 GPM — which means every plumbing fixture in the
building being on at the same time, at full flow. This peak flow is unrealistic as it will never be
reached. An average flow rate is about half of the peak flow — 93 GPM, which is well within the
operating range of the 2" water meter. The meter will be able to handle the building demand
without affecting its life span.
OPERATING CHARACTERISTICS
Motor
• •112'
Low FkYw
25 GPM
Operating
Range
5 to 160 GPM
Flows
200 GPM
Pressure Loss
6 9 PSI'@ 160 GPM
2'
25 GPM
5 to 160 GPM
200 GPM
4 3 PSI g, 160 GPM
3'
S GPM
1 0 to 400 GPM
500 GPM
3 2 PSI 400 GPM
4'
75 GPM
1 5 to 800 GPM
1000 GPM
6 4 PSI 800 GPM
6'
1 5 GPM
3 0 to 1600 GPM
2000 GPM
5 5 PSI 1600 GPM
8'
2 5 GPM
4 to 2700 GPM
3400 GPM
4 PSI 0 2700 GPM
10'
3 5 GPM
5 to 4000 GPM
5000 GPM
4 5 PSI a 4000 GPM
Thanks,
GIOVANNI JUAREZ-ORTIZ I MECHANICAL
Emerald City Engineers, Inc. 1 6505 216th Street SW, Suite 200, Mountlake Terrace, WA 98043
T 425.741.1200 1 F 425.741.12011 www.emeraldcityengineers.com
From: Rick Tomkins[ma iIto: RTomkinsPtriadassociates. net]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 11:21 AM
To: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz <g]uarez(@emeraldcityeng.com>
Cc: Don Cunningham<dcunningham(@ventureseattle.com>; Dealy Etter
<detter(@ventureseattle.com>; Tim Dickerson <tdickerson(@goodman re.com>
Subject: 50 Pine Street water servicer issue
Giovanni —
I spoke with Jeannie McConnell this morning. While the city accepted a 2-inch street service and
meter serving a 4" building supply, they are uncomfortable with the 2" serving a 6" building supply.
Recall that the 2" design was predicated on a desire to save substantial connection fee...
I need your help to defend this design. Jeannie wants an explanation for why supply changed from
4" to 6" and how 2" meter is sufficient - will read accurately, and not have reduced life span due to
anticipated flows. Need to submit this to Jeannie before she forwards on to Operations for their
review. This is holding up approval of our Design Change drawings.
IMI
Richard A. Tomkins, P.E. I Vice President
Director of Engineering
tri,
ad
a division of David Evans and Associates. Inc.
20300 Woodinville -Snohomish Road NE
Suite A I Woodinville, WA 98072
c: 206 794 9265
d: 425 415 2049
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From:
McConnell, Jeanie
To:
Rick Tomkins
Subject:
RE: 50 Pine Street, Point Edwards
Date:
Tuesday, March 22, 2016 7:53:30 AM
Attachments:
imaae001.ona
imaae001ma
imaae004.ono
Good morning Rick,
Our Water Division Manager has indicated the water line configuration as described below is not acceptable to the City.
Here is the feedback I received:
First, the Omni T2 meter is a turbine meter and not designed for this application. The City will use an Omni C2 meter which is a
compound meter and will be more accurate at reading the low flows.
Second, installation of a 4" line from the main to the meter is not recommended. The City will install a 2" service, unless one has
already been provided. If the applicant wants to upsize the pipe from the meter into the building they can. If they want a 4" tap on
the main they would have to pay for a 4" connection fee, however this approach is still something staff would need to discuss to
make sure this approach makes sense.
Please let me know if you have additional questions on this.
Regards,
Jeanie
From: Rick Tomkins [mailto:RTomkins@triadassociates.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 4:57 PM
To: McConnell, Jeanie
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street, Point Edwards
Thank you Jeannie.
Rick
From: McConnell, Jeanie[mailto:Jeanie.McConnell(cbedmondswa.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 4:48 PM
To: Rick Tomkins
Cc: Bruce Moe; Eric Bentler; Aidan Bird; Matt Parent
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street, Point Edwards
Hi Rick,
I have passed your questions on to our Utilities Engineer and Operations staff. I will follow-up with you just as soon as I can.
Regards,
Jeanie
From: Rick Tomkins[ma iIto: RTomkins(cbtriadassociates.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 11:03 AM
To: McConnell, Jeanie
Cc: Bruce Moe; Eric Bentler; Aidan Bird; Matt Parent
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street, Point Edwards
Hi Jeannie —
We have reviewed this further with our ME consultant, who has recalculated peak daily demand to be 185 gpm....
This is within the operating range of the 2" Sensus Omni T2 meter (see attached specification).
To keep pipe velocities under 8 ft/sec, we propose tapping the main and running 4" to the 2" meter, 4" from the meter to the building
point of connection and then continue into the building with 6". Would this be acceptable to the city?
Thank you,
Rick
From: McConnell, Jeanie [mailto:Jeanie.McConnell@edmondswa.gov]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 2:35 PM
To: Rick Tomkins
Cc: Bruce Moe; Eric Bentler; Aidan Bird; Thornquist, Linda
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street, Point Edwards
Hello Rick,
Phased approval is addressed in Edmonds Community Development Code 19.00.025.K. This code section states phased approval may be
granted for grading, shoring, and foundation. A separate permit application will need to be submitted in order to break apart the current
submittal and the performance bond we previously discussed would need to be submitted prior to issuance of the grading/utility permit. I
have copied Linda Thornquist on this email and she can answer any additional questions you might have on this process.
As far as the water meter questions, I'm glad to hear you are still working through the meter sizing. Our Public Works Operations and
Maintenance Department completed the review of the recent submittal and also agreed this needed to be addressed before we could sign
off on the plan set. Flow rates can be found by looking up the Sensus Omni meter.
The City only taps the City main when service lines are less than 2". Service connections 2" and greater are installed by the contractor.
Also, anything above a 2" meter is installed by the contractor. Please see meter fees below, as well as general facility charges (charged
with all new domestic connections).
Meter Fees:
Pater Meter FLc
Fee charged for new water service line from
main to meter, and meter installation per
Edmonds Citv Code 7.30.030.
Meter Size Cost
3/4" $ 2920
1 " $ 2970
1.5" $ 6220
'" $ 6390
General Facility Charges:
B. Water System GFC. The % ater system GFC shall be paid upon. and according to the date of, application for
water service, and based upon the size of the meter to be installed. as set forth in the table belo,.v:
2012 before effective
2012 effective date
Water Meter Size
date
forward
2013
2014 and beyond
3/4" meter
S908.00
S2.979.00
S4.014.50
$5,050.00
1" meter
S2.270.00
$7.447.00
S10.035.50
$12,624.00
1.5" meter
$4,540.00
$14.894.00
$20.071.00
$25,248.00
2" meter
$7.264.00
$23.830.50
$32,113.75
$40.397.00
3" meter
$14.528.00
$47.661.00
$64.227.50
$80,794.00
4" meter
$22.700.00
$74.470.00
$100,355.00
$126,240.00
6" meter
S45.400.00
$148.940.00
$200.710.00
$252,480.00
8" meter
S72.640.00
$238.304.00
$321.136.00
$403,968.00
Regards,
Jeanie
From: Rick Tomkins [mailto:RTomkins@triadassociates.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 5:15 PM
To: McConnell, Jeanie
Cc: Bruce Moe; Eric Bentler; Aidan Bird
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street, Point Edwards
Also Jeannie - In order to expedite a construction start, assuming we address all of your engineering concerns, it may make sense to
separate the site work from the building permit. Does the city have, or would it be amenable to issuing, an early Grading/Utility permit -
ahead of Building Permit issuance?
Thank you,
Rick
From: Rick Tomkins
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 5:05 PM
To: 'McConnell, Jeanie'
Cc: 'Bruce Moe'; Eric Bentler
Subject: 50 Pine Street, Point Edwards
HiJeannie —
We are still working with the Mechanical Consultant to reduce the water service size needed for building 10. As we previously discussed,
experience tells us the currently specified 6" is oversized.... Can you tell me what meter sizes are available through the city? What are the
fees? In particular, is a 3" available, and if so, what flow is it rated for?
Thank you,
Rick
Richard A. Tomkins, P.E. I Vice President
Director of Engineering
I
triad
a division of David Evans and Associates, Inc.
20300 Woodinville -Snohomish Road NE
Suite A I Woodinville, WA 98072
c: 206 794 9265
d: 425 415 2049
w: triadassociates_net
e: rtomkinsontriadassociates.net
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From:
Rick Tomkins
To:
Rick Tomkins
Subject:
FW: 50 Pine Street Building 10 Water Meter
Date:
Monday, October 9, 2017 1:06:15 PM
From: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz [mailto:gjuarez@emeraldcityeng.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:44 AM
To: Rick Tomkins <RTomkins@triadassociates.net>
Cc: Aidan Bird <abird@studioms.com>; Matt Parent <mparent @ventureseattle.com>; Bruce Moe
<bmoe@ventureseattle.com>; John Toman <jtoman@emeraldcityeng.com>
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street Building 10 Water Meter
Rick,
I discussed our options with John, and even though the peak demand of the building is 185 GPM, it is
unlikely to see such flow rate on a regular basis. Adding the cost difference to the equation-- we
approve on the installation of the 2" meter.
We still require a 6" POC to comply with the plumbing code.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks,
GIOVANNI JUAREZ-ORTIZ I MECHANICAL
Emerald City Engineers, Inc. 1 6505 216th Street SW, Suite 200, Mountlake Terrace, WA 98043
T 425,741.1200 1 F 425.741.12011 www.emeraldcityengineers.com
From: Rick Tomkins[mailto:RTomkins(@triadassociates.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 9:01 AM
To: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz <gjuarez(@emeraldcityeng.com>
Cc: Aidan Bird <abird(@studioms.com>; Matt Parent <mparent(@ventureseattle.com>; Bruce Moe
<bmoe(@ventureseattle.com>; John Toman <jtoman(@emeraldcityeng.com>
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street Building 10 Water Meter
Giovanni —the city is objecting to the use of a turbine meter (T2) and instead is requiring a
compound meter (C2) which has a lower operating range for the same size.... (see attached email
from Jeannie McConnell). The peak demand you calculated (185 gpm) falls outside the operating
range of a 2" C2 meter (0.5 to 160 gpm), but is under the C2's max intermittent flow (200 gpm). Can
we get along with a 2" or must we step up to a 3"? Note that the GFC for a 3" meter is twice that of
a 2" ($80,794 vs $40,397).
Thank you,
1101
From: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz [maiIto: gjuarez(a)emeraldcityeng.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 10:49 AM
To: Rick Tomkins
Cc: Aidan Bird; Matt Parent; Bruce Moe; John Toman
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street Building 10 Water Meter
Rick,
The peak demand was actually lowered to 185 gpm rather than the 195 gpm as previously reported.
A 2" turbo meter should be sufficient if allowed by the City.
The pipe sizes mentioned below seem reasonable, the 6" upsize will need to happen at least 5' from
the building edge.
Thank you,
GIOVANNI JUAREZ-ORTIZ I MECHANICAL
Emerald City Engineers, Inc. 1 6505 216th Street SW, Suite 200, Mountlake Terrace, WA 98043
T 425.741.1200 1 F 425.741.12011 www.emeraldcityeng_ineers.com
From: Rick Tomkins [ma iIto: RTomkins(@triadassociates.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 11:31 AM
To: Bruce Moe <bmoe(@ventureseattle.com>
Cc: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz <givarez(@emeraldcityeng.com>; Aidan Bird <abird(cDstudioms.com>; Matt
Parent <mparent Pventureseattle.com>
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street Building 10 Water Meter
Bruce — please see attached email from Jeannie "RE: 50....pdf' — she is quoting the same code
standards section I sent you previously...
She does provide this new information:
City uses Sensus Omni meters (see attached specifications)
A 3" compound meter is rated for flows up to 400 gpm
A 3" turbo meter is rated for flows up to 500 gpm
GFC for 3" meter is $80,794. Applicant pays for meter and performs installation since larger than 2"
3" meter may be oversized since in the attached "RE: GRE ....pdf" Giovanni indicates a needed
supply rate of 195 gpm.
If this is a "maximum daily demand" then this appears to be within the capacity of a 2" Turbo meter
(rated for flows up to 200 gpm). Giovanni — please confirm maximum daily demand flow rate.
If a 2" turbo meter were acceptable to the city, then the GFC would reduce in half to $40,397.
Note that 195 gpm requires a 4" pipe to limit velocities to less than 8ft/sec (— 5 ft/sec). So we would
tap the main and run 4" to the meter, 4" from the meter to the building POC and 6" from the POC
and into the building.
Best,
107
From: Bruce Moe [mailto:bmoe(a)ventureseattle.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 10:00 AM
To: Rick Tomkins
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street Building 10 Water Meter
Is Jeannie the proper person?
The city of Edmonds has a water district that should tell you! Cost of a 2", 3" GPM thru the meter.
You will need to design the meter vault, backflow device, etc.
Bruce
From: Rick Tomkins [mailto:RTomkins(@triadassociates.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 8:34 AM
To: Bruce Moe <bmoe(@ventureseattle.com>; Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz <gjuarez(@emeraldcit)1eng.com>
Cc: Matt Parent <moarent(@ventureseattle.com>; Eric Bentler <ebentler(@good man re.com>
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street Building 10 Water Meter
Bruce — have not make contact with the city, but found the attached information in their code. Page
5 indicates 3" meters are available (at twice the gfc as a 2")... I will continue to pursue this with
Jeannie to figure out gpm rating.
Rick
From: Bruce Moe [mailto:bmoe(aiventureseattle.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 4:05 PM
To: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz; Rick Tomkins
Cc: Matt Parent; Eric Bentler
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street Building 10 Water Meter
Have any of you contacted the water dept. for meter availability sizes, E.G. P.M?
The owner needs to know meter costs for their budget reasons. You need to know what meter size is
being used to plan for the vault, it's size, connections, etc.
I still believe a 2" meter may be sufficient, but absolutely no more than a 3". Please provide this
information by 3/10/16. 1 have an owner meeting 3/11/16 to discuss.
Bruce
From: Bruce Moe
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 3:50 PM
To: 'Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz' <gjuarez(@emeraldcityeng.com>
Cc: rtomkins(@triadassociates.net; 'jtoman@emeraldcityeng.com' <jtoman(@emeraldcit)1eng.com>;
Matt Parent <moarent(@ventureseattle.com>
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street Building 10 Water Meter
Giovanni,
The meters are provided by the water departments. All municipalities seem to be a little different on
performance. Please check that AND available pressure with the water dept.
My validation of meter sizing is strictly from experiences with similar projects. I am not aware if a 3"
meter is available.
Have you checked?
Bruce
From: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz [mailto:gjuarez(@emeraldcityeng.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 10:35 AM
To: Bruce Moe <bmoe(@ventureseattle.com>
Cc: John Toman <jtoman(@emeraldcityeng.com>
Subject: RE: 50 Pine Street Building 10 Water Meter
Bruce,
What is the maximum flow rate the 3" or 2" meter can handle?
GIOVANNI JUAREZ-ORTIZ I MECHANICAL
Emerald City Engineers, Inc. 1 6505 216th Street SW, Suite 200, Mountlake Terrace, WA 98043
T 425.741.1200 1 F 425.741.12011 www.emeraldcityengineers.com
From: Bruce Moe [mailto:bmoe(@ventureseattle.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 9:57 AM
To: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz <gjuarez(@emeraldcityeng.com>
Subject: FW: 50 Pine Street Building 10
From: Bruce Moe
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 9:56 AM
To:'givarez@emeraldcityeng.com' <givarez(@emeraldcityeng.com>
Subject: FW: 50 Pine Street Building 10
From: Bruce Moe
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 9:55 AM
To: 'Rick Tomkins' <rtomkins(@triadassociates.net>; 'givarez@emeraldcityeng.com'
<givarez(@emeraldcit)Ieng.com>
Cc: Matt Parent <moarent Pventureseattle.com>, 'karela@peltramplumbing.com'
<karela(cpeltramplumbing.com>
Subject: 50 Pine Street Building 10
Would you please recheck your calculations.
I still believe the 4" meter is over sized based on previous project experiences. Karel would you
review also please. A 4" meter with the vault requirements etc. is substantially more expensive than
a 2".
Bruce
From: Rick Tomkins[mailto:rtomkins(@triadassociates.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 4:39 PM
To: Bruce Moe <bmoeC@Ventureseattle.com>
Subject: FW: GRE Pt. Edwards - CAD base and utility PDF
Bruce —
Here is the latest from Emerald City... 195 gpm should be no problem for 4" meter...
Rick
From: Giovanni Juarez-Ortiz[maiIto: ajuarez(a)emeraldcityeng.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2016 6:19 PM
To: Rick Tomkins
Cc: 'Aidan Bird'
Subject: RE: GRE Pt. Edwards - CAD base and utility PDF
Hi Rick,
I resized the water system utilizing Appendix C of the Plumbing Code. This lowered our building
demand from 235 GPM to 195 GPM. Unfortunately, we are still maxing out on the velocity for CPVC
pipe material, and a 6" water main and POC is still required.
On the plus side, since the demand was lowered-- as long as a 4" water meter can handle 195 GPM,
we can have a 4" water meter and upsize to a 6" POC at least 5' from the building edge.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks,
GIOVANNI JUAREZ-ORTIZ I MECHANICAL
Emerald City Engineers, Inc. 1 6505 216th Street SW, Suite 200, Mountlake Terrace, WA 98043
T 425.741.1200 1 F 425.741.12011 www.emeraldcityengineers.com
From: Rick Tomkins [mailto:rtomkins(@triadassociates.net]
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 4:27 PM
To: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz <gjuarez(@emeraldcityeng.com>
Cc:'Aidan Bird' <abird(@studioms.com>
Subject: RE: GRE Pt. Edwards - CAD base and utility PDF
Giovanni —
The city has requested you reconfirm size of required domestic service — they indicate that 6" is
larger than what they typically see... Are you quite certain that a 4" is not sufficient? Note that fire
service is only 4"...
Thank you,
Rick
From: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz [maiIto: gjuarez(a)emeraldcityeng.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 6:31 PM
To: Kevin Puckett
Cc: Rick Tomkins
Subject: RE: GRE Pt. Edwards - CAD base and utility PDF
Kevin,
I finished the water sizing calculations and we'll need a 6" domestic POC. This transition will need to
happen at least 5' from the building to meet code. The meter will need to handle 235 GPM.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks,
GIOVANNI JUAREZ-ORTIZ
Emerald City Engineers, Inc.
From: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 8:44 AM
To: 'Kevin Puckett' <kpuckett(@triadassociates.net>
Cc: Rick Tomkins <rtomkinsPtriadassociates.net>
Subject: RE: GRE Pt. Edwards - CAD base and utility PDF
Thank you Kevin.
Just to confirm, the domestic water POC is located at the southwest corner of the building? Coming
in just below the garage level?
Also, we have the domestic backflow preventer inside the building?
Thanks,
GIOVANNI JUAREZ-ORTIZ
Emerald City Engineers, Inc.
From: Kevin Puckett[mailto:kpuckett(@triadassociates.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 4:19 PM
To: Giovanni Juarez -Ortiz <gjuarez(@emeraldcityeng.com>
Cc: Rick Tomkins <rtomkins(@triadassociates. net>
Subject: GRE Pt. Edwards - CAD base and utility PDF
Hi Giovanni,
Attached is a CAD base drawing and a PDF of the utility plan. Here are water pressures:
Finished floor elevations vary from 132.75 (1-1) to 175.75 (L5)
Pstatic at L1 = .433x(325—132.75) = 83.2 psi
Pstatic at L5 = .433x(325—175.75) = 64.6 psi
Please let us know if you have trouble with these files or need additional information.
Thanks,
Kevin Puckett I Engineering Designer
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e: kpuckett(@triadassociates.net
Engineering I Surveying I Landscape Architecture I Planning
Please reply if you are unable to open the attachment(s). Direct all other questions regarding
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