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2024-05-21 Council Special MinutesEDMONDS CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING APPROVED MINUTES May 21, 2024 ELECTED OFFICIALS PRESENT Mike Rosen, Mayor Vivian Olson, Council President Chris Eck, Councilmember Will Chen, Councilmember Neil Tibbott, Councilmember Michelle Dotsch, Councilmember Susan Paine, Councilmember Jenna Nand, Councilmember 1. CALL TO ORDER STAFF PRESENT Scott Passey, City Clerk Jerrie Bevington, Camera Operator The Edmonds City Council special meeting was called to order at 4:30 pm by Mayor Rosen in the Council Chambers, 250 5t' Avenue North, Edmonds, and virtually. 2. INTERVIEW CANDIDATES FOR APPOINTMENT TO MUNICIPAL COURT JUDGE POSITION Mayor Rosen described the interview process; each candidate will provide a three minute introduction and then each councilmember will ask one question with three minutes for both the question and answer. If time allows, councilmembers can ask follow-up questions. Councilmembers interviewed the following candidates (responses in italics): Robert Grant I live in Edmonds with my wife and three children. We moved to Edmonds in 2017, purchasing my wife's childhood home when her parents downsized. Given Edmonds is a special community to us, we wanted to raise our children here, reintroduce ourselves to the community. I don't think we will ever leave Edmonds, we've built our roots, we're building our family here, and we value Edmonds. I've spent almost my entire career in public service as an attorney in Snohomish County, a law clerk, a deputy prosecutor and now an assistant attorney general in the environmental protection division. That office is primary downtown; we work from home a lot. When I'm asked why I want to be the next Edmonds Municipal Court Judge, I give two quick, easy answers: I really enjoy it and I really value Edmonds. I have spent a very long time as a prosecutor and as a pro tem, about eight years. There is something special about being a neutral arbitrator; you don't have to be in an adversarial proceeding where you are an adversary which isn't always the funniest time. As a judge you get to look at the facts, apply the law and do what you think is fair and just. Although I could be old fashioned, I think a judge should be fair and impartial. That's what I enjoy about being the judge pro tem which I've done for about eight years, starting in Edmonds. When it comes to valuing Edmonds, we live here, this is our community, we're raising our family here and I feel it's an opportunity to give back to the community which is why I'm applying for this position. Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes May 21, 2024 Page 1 Councilmember Paine asked his opinion of alternative dispositions. Cases can be disposed of via therapeutic courts. There is deferred prosecution where a person does a series of treatment and their prosecution eventually gets dismissed. There's stipulated order of continuances where the prosecution and the defense get to come up with a resolution and as long as somebody complies with those conditions, it gets dismissed. What are you specifically asking? Councilmember Paine asked his opinion, whether he found them helpful for municipal court situations. Ideally yes. There are two happy days in court; adoption days which is in superior court and graduation from a therapeutic court. I've had the opportunity to see family court; I was a law clerk and you watch people who are struggling with mental health and addiction. That therapeutic court allows people to get their families back together, develop skills, do counseling, medication if needed. The same is true for mental health courts and drug courts. I think those are very important tools because the one thing all courts, at least municipal courts and district courts, the whole purpose ofprobation is for rehabilitation. If you can prevent them from coming back into the stream of the criminal justice system which tends to be a revolving door, I'm all for that. Council President Olson commented in addition to the all-important role of ruling on issues of justice, the municipal judge is also the manager of the judicial branch of the Edmonds government. She asked what strengths he brings to the management side of the role and whether he would feel any responsibility to look for cost savings at the court as the other department heads of other the other city branches and departments are being asked to do. That's a two part question; I would rely heavily on my court administrator and some of my other judges around the county as to how to best manage the situation. I'm an Edmonds resident, I understand the financial situation we find ourselves in. I am committed to looking into anything that might benefit the city while still maintaining the judicial branch. There are a few simple things that I think can easily be done. For one time costs, there are a lot of grants for purchasing; I know other courts have purchased metal detectors through grants, software that allows paperless courts, audio equipment. That's something the court must look at. I am willing and eager to look through everything to see if there is any room for the court to cut costs. As a resident and a branch of government, you have a duty to be a good steward of the resources and that's what I would endeavor to do. Councilmember Eck said as the municipal judge, he would be expected to work cooperatively with a variety of staff in the municipal court. She asked how he would go about establishing relationships with the staff and therefore trust I'm relatively good at establishing trust. I don't know if you've been able to review my entire application packet; one of the things I thought was important was to give a broad spectrum of my work as a pro tem. I included in the packet a couple staff members, letters from either probation or clerks, describing how we've interacted. I think that kind of reflects how I would treat and interact with the court staff. I have the good fortune of knowing the court administrator fairly well; we met when I was a brand new prosecutor back in 200912010 and we have a pretty collegial relationship and could work well with her. Councilmember Tibbott commented the municipal court hears a variety of cases and occasionally there are repeat offenders. Suppose one of those repeat offenders comes into the court and has not responded well to the corrective actions previously recommended. He asked how he would treat that case differently than a first time offender, and what he would suggest as a follow-up. This might be a lawyer answer, but it depends. I cannot say how I would rule on any particular case without knowing the facts before me. I look at every case and every individual uniquely as they appear before me. The way it is structed in general, there are laws on the books, for example DUI, you get your first DUI, there's mandatory minimums. For a second DUI, those minimums increase and so forth and so on. Legislation has indicated if there is a repeat offender, perhaps the initial deterrent punishment wasn't sufficient so it increases as it goes on. There are times, depending on the individual, they may have hit their rock bottom. One of the things I find in the criminal justice system is a vast majority of thepeople who enter the criminal justice system where they are the defendant, they are struggling with substance abuse, mental health or a combination. There are times Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes May 21, 2024 Page 2 where that is their rock bottom and they do respond to probation or the resources provided by the court. I provided a letter where that happened in Lynnwood, where the person was in and out of the courts for five years and I had a conversation with her, saying she was either going to jail for a year or she was going to utilize the treatment. She was at her rock bottom so although she was in the revolving door, she has been clean and sober, a productive member of society. Councilmember Chen commented the Edmonds community is becoming more and more diverse in terms of racial diversity but also social economic and other factors. He asked about his experience working with a diverse population when it comes to judging cases in front of him. Are you asking since this community is changing, how have I changed throughout my career, how do I address that change when I'm either on the bench or a prosecutor? Councilmember Chen clarified his question was how he has addressed the change as a judge, a lawyer, and as a person. It depends on the person before me. One of the things I've learned over the years is the criminal justice system is not built the same or equal for everyone. That shouldn't be too controversial of a statement and here's why. Historically there has been a disproportional impact. Some of the laws, such as cocaine, crack cocaine and powder cocaine were sentenced differently federally. Crack cocaine was sentenced far more severely than powder cocaine. Crack cocaine was predominantly African American community so the laws on the books treatedpeople disproportionately. I find as a prosecutor that the laws have disproportionately impacted victims too, maybe not the laws but the distrust for the system which is quite sad. The system needs to be somewhere everyone feels safe and comfortable coming to the courtroom. As an environmental lawyer, I've noticed the pollution that occurs throughout the state; I have to be in all 39 counties, it has a disproportional impact on communities of color and poor communities. People feel they can dump their pollution on the lower income people and not care. You have to factor in everybody; everybody has a unique life experience and I am committed whenever a person appears before me, regardless of their socioeconomic class or your background, you will be treated with dignity and respect and I will factor in your personal situation, I will continue to educate myself on how your personal situation makes you view the court system and how the court system has traditionally viewed you and continue to move forward in making this a courtroom where everybody feels they matter and will be heard. Councilmember Dotsch asked how he planned to manage a caseload and prioritize cases. The best that I can. I have been in all the courts of limited jurisdiction; there are courts that are run efficiently and smoothly where cases aren't continued, calendars are more cost effective and efficient. For example, interpreter calendars, they combine all the interpreter matters on one day to lower interpreter costs and minimize court time. I look at everything in the court system and try to take my eight years `experience as a pro tem judge and distill it down to make calendars more efficient. I do not like delays or court being late. One of the benefits of Zoom is most people should be on time for court, at least their attorneys should be, and cutting down on the in -court time can improve efficiency in all the other aspects. Councilmember Nand asked if he was appointed to the Edmonds Municipal Court, whether he intended to continue the community court function. I would like to sit down and see everything we have. I am not at all intending to eliminate anything. I don't have the purse strings. Ideally, I love therapeutic courts; whenever you're in court, as a judge or an attorney, people aren't happy to see you. In therapeutic courts, they are; you feel like you get an opportunity to be heard, to be treated like a human being, and to be given the resources you desperately need. I personally like therapeutic courts; I've utilized therapeutic courts as a prosecutor. Those are some of my favorite calendars to preside over as a pro tem so I don't have any intention to eliminate anything at this time, but we need to look at everything as a whole and how effective it is. If there is a way to run it more efficiently, I would look at that as well. Councilmember Tibbott said there is a good chance there will be more cases with repeat offenders for a variety of circumstances. While he appreciated the answer, it depends, he realized there may be times when there is not enough background, research or time with the person. He asked what could be done in situations Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes May 21, 2024 Page 3 to improve the efficiency of the process such as the number of people or minor offenses. If it's a minor third offense, as a judge what do I do? I'm not trying to be cavalier, but one of things you cannot commit to as a judicial candidate or a judge is how you'd rule on any particular case which is why I gave you the lawyer answer. There is a time and place for jail if that's what you're asking. I do think there's a time and place that jail's not appropriate. Have I put people in jail? Yes, I have. Have I put people on probation? Yes, I have. Have I terminated and not put them on probation because I didn't think it would be effective? That's true as well. I don't know how to answer your question in a way that gets to what you're asking without violating judicial ethics or canons I'm supposed to uphold. Can you ask it a different way? Councilmember Tibbott answered he'd have to have a specific case and he did not. Watch me in court and you'll have a flavor for how I'll rule. Councilmember Paine referred to re -offense and asked if he had any experience with Moral Reconation Therapy (MRT) and whether he had opinions or thoughts about it. I have opinions and thoughts about most things. When I was pro tem in Edmonds when Judge Coburn was the judge, Omar was the probation officer, now the assistant administrator. At that time Omar was probation officer of the year and was in charge of MRT and did a phenomenal job with it. Domestic violence is a horrible crime, everyone can agree with that, getting to the root cause can break the cycle of violence which is to everyone's benefit. Councilmember Eck followed up on Councilmember Chen's question, thinking about diverse community members who may not be native English speaking, she asked whether he thought local courts could do a better job serving non-English native speakers. Absolutely, 100%, we can definitely do better. Igo to 39 counties as an environmental prosecutor. One of the things I've noticed I King County does pretty effectively is provide pamphlets and information in several languages. When I was a prosecutor or pro tem in Snohomish County, information was provided in Spanish and maybe Mandarin; Snohomish County does not do a good job in terms and languages that are accessible and that people can easily read. I don't know the cost or how hard that would be, but that is one of the areas we need to do better at making the processes known and having it not be a scary place and do it in a manner that is easily understandable for people unfamiliar with the system. Councilmember Nand referred to the legislative fix for Blake and the recriminalization of simple possession, and asked how to move beyond the failed model for the "war on drugs," and emphasize rehabilitative justice in response to the opioid epidemic. As a judge, I don't get to make the laws; I get to enforce the laws on the books. Back when marijuana was illegal, one of the commissioners who hated that it was illegal would still sentence following the law. I'm obligated to follow the law; that being said, before law school, before pro teming, I used to be a case manager at an in patient treatment facility in Sedro Woolley. I know the depths of addiction, I know the depth people find themselves in, I understand when people hit rock bottom. Not very many major crime cases occurred without some type of drug addiction or the involvement of drugs. I can think of maybe two murders where drugs weren't involved, either a drug rip or somebody who was impaired by drugs or alcohol. Same with robberies; most robberies occur because someone is trying to feed their addiction or they are vulnerable because they have an addiction and they are easily preyed upon. Councilmember Nand commented the state is shifting toward recriminalization and how that is implemented and the impacts on people's lives is a good topic of discussion. Mayor Rosen recognized Judge Fair in the audience. Nathan Sugg Thank you for giving me the opportunity to address each of you in this forum today. I'm impressed to see such a robustprocess for the selection of the next Edmonds Municipal Court Judge in such a short timeline. I grew up in Vancouver, Washington. I did not know any lawyers when I was growing up, but quickly found my way north to the University of Washington in Seattle where I studied English andpolitical science. Went to Seattle University Law School shortly after when I realized being a lawyer is something you can do after Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes May 21, 2024 Page 4 college; I had no idea that was how it worked. Once I learned that, I knew that was the path for me. Shortly after law school, I started at Snohomish County Superior Court, clerking for Judge George Apple, watching trials and being in the courtroom which is where I first learned I wanted to be in the courtroom, at least for the beginning of my career. Shortly thereafter; I joined the Snohomish County Prosecutor's Office where I served as a career prosecutor, trying cases to juries in misdemeanor and felony cases. I then became a member of the Appellate Unit where I focused largely on looking at those same trial cases but with a deeper perspective, examining if there were potential errors committed by parties involved or by the trial judge. My experiences personally and professionally have come to this moment. Another important thing to know about me is I am a resident of southeast Edmonds and I and my family are engaged in the Edmonds community and want to see the City succeed. Councilmember Tibbott said in thinking about the court cases in Edmonds' court, he suspected there would be times when a defendant has been a repeat offender and there is an effort to determine the best course of action. He asked how Mr. Sugg would treat a case of a repeat offender differently the second, third or fourth time they have been in front of him as a judge; how he would handle it, what remedies he would consider and how that would help the community. This is a practice I've had to engage in as a prosecutor throughout my career. When you are deciding the sentencing recommendation that you make as a prosecutor to the judge, it is a similar question as what the judge has to do. There are certain factors to consider and interests to be balanced. In examining cases of repeat offenders, a judge should look at the criminal history of that offender and factor that in. Oftentimes that means the sanctions increase in felony court. In superior court there is a legislatively established guideline. District and municipal courts do not have the same guidelines; judges are afforded a lot of discretion in imposing anything from zero days and 364 days. In the case of repeat offenders, generally the consequences get more severe. That focus is largely on what the harms are and what the court believes the causes of those harms were. Both my philosophy as a prosecutor and my philosophy pro-teming for the Edmonds Municipal Court have largely focused on correcting what that harm was. If someone is before you for a third or fourth time, we start to reach a point where we're not going to be able to correct that harm. If good faith efforts are no longer being made to fix the underlying problem that produces the harm in the community, then different results are warranted. Jail is one tool in a judicial officer's toolbox; it is not a hammer and every problem is not a nail, but there is a time and place for it. As a judicial officer, especially in situations where there are repeat offenses, no attempt to treat the underlying causes of the behavior, then jail is the appropriate solution in order to gain compliance. Councilmember Chen said the Edmonds community has grown in terms of diversity, not only race, but also socioeconomic and political preferences. He asked as a judge, how he would handle the growing diversity in the city. It is important for every judicial officer to engage in a certain amount of self -reflection. Whenever it comes to ensuring we're building an inclusive environment, either in the courtroom or in any government institution, first and foremost, that starts with us as individuals. I have been involved in the equity and inclusion taskforce for Snohomish County government; I was appointed to that taskforce by Executive Dave Somers with the goal of taking a hard look at Snohomish County government's practices in the diversity, equity and inclusion space and coming up with concrete recommendations to improve hiring, retention, and overall inclusion in county government. Many of the practices that taskforce recommended would be directly applicable to creating an inclusive environment in the courtroom. It is making sure the courtroom is doing the outreach, but also having adequate training for court personnel, awareness of cultural and linguistic differences. With regard to the linguistic front, a large number of different languages come through the Edmonds Municipal Court. Making sure every court user, attorney as well as clerks and clerk office staff are well versed and trained in effectively using interpreters can make a big difference. There are many court -certified interpreters, meaning they've had training, but only certain languages are certified by the Administrative Office of the Court. With uncertified interpreters, it is the judge's obligation to ensure the interpreters are being used in a way that make the proceedings fair and accessible to every person that comes through the court. Having an open mind, being aware of your own blind spots, putting in the time to educate yourself and demonstrating that for those around you. Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes May 21, 2024 Page 5 Councilmember Dotsch asked how he planned to manage caseload and prioritize cases. Prioritization of caseloads largely comes down to the two categories of cases that come through the court. In 2023 the court had approximately 500 criminal cases and about 3, 000 infractions. With the installation of school speed zone cameras, infractions are expected to be 12, 000 this year, a 4-fold increase. Making sure the court has efficiency built into it to address those is important. First, to make sure people who do not want to take a day off and come to court to argue to have their ticket reduced or say they didn't do it, if they want to do it online, the court's website needs to be very clear how to do that. Many of the models Edmonds looked at in adopting camera infraction systems were based on Lynnwood's model and Lynnwood's website has an option for showing up digitally, accessing and entering information via a portal and more hearings are presented in that manner. People still have the option of coming to court and talking face -to face with the judge if they choose, but ensuring people who do not want to take a day off from work can do it digitally increases the efficiency of the court. Second, criminal cases that come before the court such as DUI, Assault 4, domestic violence, Theft 3, trespass and other types of cases, those generally fall within continuances. Frequently a defense attorney appears saying they need a continuance; the reasons are largely negotiation which can happen and at times the prosecutor or the city would also need a continuance, but the level of pressing the court does when those are the reasons can do a lot when it comes to controlling caseload. If the court simply accepts that an prosecutor needs additional time to negotiate on the 6th-8`h continuance, you can see what that would do to the caseloads. If the court asks what negotiations have been done, what else do you need to investigate, what witnesses do you need to talk to and probes the underlying comments, you can set realistic deadlines rather than engaging in a 30 day continuance. As a pro tem, I recently saw a case that had 20 continuances; the 20`h continuance the case gets a little long in the tooth and we should probably be pushing those cases through a bit quicker. Councilmember Nand asked if you he was appointed to Edmonds Municipal Court, did he intend to continue to community court function. Yes, I do. I began looking at this when I began pro teming in this court in 2021 and when I was escalated to the presiding judge pro tem by Judge Whitney Rivera and Uneek Maylor,, in that position I was asked to fill in if Judge Rivera were to have suffered any illness and could not continue serving. It was a nice voice of confidence and I felt imposed upon me a duty to study the ways the community court operates and the ways it could. In my study of the way the community court operates, no two jurisdiction's community courts are the same. They vary a lot throughout the country. The ones that are successful are all focused on the same things, looking at upstream behavior and trying to correct that in certain qualifying offenses. For the cases that come to the community court, persons with limited or no criminal history, defendants have the opportunity to earn a dismissal of the case if they engage with conditions related to the offense. For example, if they were stealing food from WinCo, we want to ensure they have an EBT card, that they can access food at the food bank, that they know how to take those steps. Those conditions can afford someone the opportunity to correct a one-time mistake. Repeat offenders, after someone has had those opportunities and demonstrated they can receive an EBT card, that they know how to access food at the food bank, but are still engaging in the same behavior, the court needs to take a hard look at whether the community court is still the appropriate place for those cases. Yes, I would engage in community court. Whether it would be the same as it has always existed, I hope there would be certain innovations as each judge who has come to Edmonds has made innovations in the court. I believe in the overall principles and think community courts are great at reducing recidivism for those certain types of cases thatfind their way into the community court and I believe we should continue to have that in Edmonds. Councilmember Paine asked his opinion of alternative dispositions at the municipal court level. I believe your question is focused on a couple we receive in Edmonds Municipal Court which probably fall under the community court type cases as well as stipulated orders of continuance. Those are a pre-trial diversion agreement between the city and the criminal defendants. It generally looks similar to a community court style outcome where a defendant would be asked to complete certain conditions through an agreement with theprosecutor's office. The court would then have the authority to accept that agreement andput a judicial Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes May 21, 2024 Page 6 imprimatur on that agreement. If the conditions are completed satisfactorily within the time window, that matter would then be dismissed. I believe those are the two primary alternatives to prosecution that we see in the Edmonds Municipal Court. It think these are great tools to have in the toolbox. There are certain types of cases that absolutely benefit from this. At the prosecutor's office, we frequently hear victims say I only want the defendant to receive treatment, I only want the defendant to fix whatever problem causes this behavior. Those are the types of solutions that really allow the court to ensure the underlying causes are rectified while preserving public safety in our community. I am in favor of those alternatives. As a judge I would do what I could to bring the stakeholders together to ensure those continue to be strong opportunities in Edmonds Municipal Court. Having alternatives to prosecution requires buy -in from prosecutors, defense attorneys; for community court, there needs to be buy -in from community members most affected by the crimes that come through that court. Having appropriate stakeholders there is an essential role and a judge's role in putting together a system like that. Councilmember Paine clarified her question was alternative dispositions. When the sentencing judge has to impose a disposition, generally there are two potentially three that can be imposed. The time for response to the question expired, Mayor Rosen suggested it be addressed during follow-up questions. Council President Olson said her question was related to the dual role; in addition to the important role of ruling on issues of justice, the municipal court judge is also the manager of the judicial branch of Edmonds government. She asked what strengths he brings to the management side of the role and would he feel any responsibility to look for cost savings at the court as department heads of other city branches and departments are being asked to do. Yes, I agree, a judge should be judged in all three arenas, their work in the courtroom and their experience there, their work in the clerk's office as an administrator of what goes on behind the courtroom, as well as in the community. My experience behind the clerk's office largely comes from my work with Local 18 PA which is a union of ASFCME, since 2016, I have been the president of that organization, working to unify the voices of the approximately 65 deputy prosecutors and presenting that message to decision makers in county government. Trying to develop a unified message of 65 attorneys is not always easy. I have generally thought of my experience in that role as a facilitator, not a role I get paid for, but I believe my job is to make sure everyone has the information they need to make good decisions, promote uniformed consensus to the extent we can, present that, and be the voice of that consensus. That is the style most of my leadership takes. In that role I worked internally and had experience leading that group, but have also had opportunity in that role to engage with county governments. I've worked with stakeholders in county government related to budget and in the prosecutor's office related to disciplinary issues on occasion when deputy prosecutors have done things that landed them on the front page of the Herald, often quickly followed by discipline. I have been on the other side of the table in all those situations so I have rather extensive experience knowing how to work with a unionized workforce and the obligations that come along with that. I have the experience of knowing the lay of that complicated employment land through the eight years I've served in that role and also my philosophy is to largely try to promote consensus, make sure the information in the hands of those who know and arrive at a conclusion that works well for everyone. Councilmember Eck commented as a municipal judge, he would be expected to work cooperatively with a variety of staff in the municipal court. She asked how he would go about establishing a relationship with staff and therefore trust. In law offices you often find a division between staff and attorneys; I think it's just a natural consequence of the credential. In my practice, I've always felt that was garbage and have always worked to reduce that vibe or barrier in the officer wherever I could. As the union president, we would host social functions where staff members were celebrated. What goes a long way is personal interaction; not a judge that comes and leaves via the back entrance, but someone spending time listening not just to the workplace experiences of those they work with, but actually building a relationship and investing time in those relationships. I personally can't see any other way that someone could run an organization without Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes May 21, 2024 Page 7 developing those personal relationships and connections. It's just something I've always done and can't really comprehend how to do the job well otherwise. Councilmember Paine asked his opinion of alternative dispositions at the municipal court level. When a judge is imposing sentence after accepting a guilty plea or someone has been convicted at trial, the judge largely has two options when it comes to the type of sentence imposed. They can suspend a sentence which would then allow a certain amount ofjail time to be held such that if the probation conditions imposed were not followed through, the jail time could be used to encourage them to comply. The goal is always that the judge would be able to talk someone into compliance, that they could use their social skills and ability to encourage that without having to impose jail time. There is also deferred sentences; a deferred sentence is much more in line with a stipulated order of continuance (SOC); a SOC is a pre -conviction tool, the deferred sentence is largely the same tool but exists in apost-conviction arena. The defendant would receive a sentence, conditions would be imposed, potentially jail time could be imposed and if those conditions were satisfied, that conviction would result in a dismissal at the conclusion of the probationary period or the deferred sentence period. Those are the two typical forms of dispositions that would imposed at the time of sentencing. The one that I would call a deferred prosecution, that's strictly DUIs. In that realm, an individual can go through alcohol treatment, but it only exists in that limited context ofDUI cases, seeking to address the underlying behavior to earn a dismissal in advance of conviction for those cases. Councilmember Tibbott asked assuming a defendant is a repeat offender, how would he use the probation system available in Edmonds instead of jail time. Edmonds is very fortunate to have an award -winning probation team that is certified in Moral Reconation Therapy. That tool has seen very positive empirical results and has done well in Edmonds. Using that in lieu ofjail time is always the first option. As I indicated, there may become a point where the court is no longer satisfied that someone was engaged in doing that work to prevent the behavior next time, then the court has to look to other tools. I think almost every case should involve some form of initial opportunity for an individual to engage with the underlying harm that go them into the situation. Of course, that's not every case, there are some in which the harm to the community is too great to be afforded those opportunities, but the court should be engaged in balancing that. We've seen some cities in Washington that have gone to a stricter sentencing guideline based on what the city council has imposed in those cities and I don't think that's the right way. The city would generally want someone to take a hard look at the individual circumstances of each case to figure out the right solution based on that individual's past, their past criminal history, and the harm created in each specific case. Councilmember Tibbott recalled Judge Coburn had days where people would come in after their probationary period and talk about the life change they experienced as a result of following through the process. Those were inspirational stories and also served the city well. Councilmember Nand asked with the legislative fix for Blake and the recriminalization of simple position, how can we move beyond the failed war on drugs model and emphasize rehabilitative justice in response to the opioid epidemic. I was largely tasked with the implementation of Blake which involved the vacating of a massive number of criminal convictions in Snohomish County Superior Court and I served that role on behalf of the prosecutor's office, had my name attached to approximately 7, 000 motions to vacate those prior criminal convictions. Now that possession of a controlled substance has been made a gross misdemeanor by the legislature, we're in a position where I think some of the same policies that were underlying the court's decision in Blake or may have driven it, now fall to individual judges in their sentencing decisions. That means we're talking about the harms that landed that person in court and what the harms are in possession of a controlled substance case. Typically those are substance use disorder issues that when an individual is ready for treatment and engages with treatment, will generally recti the harm in our community. The court needs to be very aware of alternatives to prosecution when we look at those cases. Despite having been a career prosecutor, I don't think I know anyone who believes in imposing jail time for low level drug offenses; those type of cases instead call for a more compassionate response, Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes May 21, 2024 Page 8 focusing on healing the person who is engaged in substance use disorder, helping them find a solution to those problems and in turn rectifying the harm it creates in our community. Council President Olson asked if he would feel any responsibility to look for cost savings at the court as department heads are being asked to do. As a unit of government, the judicial branch bears an obligation and has an opportunity to partner with the rest of the city to ensure Edmonds achieves its goals. That means where it can, the municipal court should work with council and the mayor's office in achieving those results. Specific cost savings the court can have will first come from making sure the court is as efficient as possible in dealing with its infraction caseload. As those rise, the court will need to examine workflows throughout the court as well as make sure we are finding resource efficiencies where possible. A second arena where cost savings can be had is in the use of interpreters. Currently when interpreters are scheduled, there is a two-hour minimum; almost every calendar I've pro temed had an interpreter, typically for a matter that will last for 2-3 minutes, but the interpreter is paid for 1-2 hours. Instead the court should create an interpreter calendar that keeps those matters together and fully utilize the expense of an interpreter for the full 1-2 hours they are contracted for, handle multiple matters and save on the professional services budget. Those are the two ideas I've come up with at this point, but ultimately I am fully committed to working with council and the mayor's office in solving the structural deficit that the city finds itself in. Neil Weiss I'm an attorney and my practice is primarily in Everett and I practice primarily in Snohomish County. My practice now consists of quite a bit of dependency work, cases involving parents, families and children involved with CPS along with court appointed work. That's part of my law firm, ABC Law Group, where I'm a partner. Along with that work comes administration. My work also includes the First Legal Clinic, a nonprofit legal clinic that I and my law partners established in 2019 where we represent parents, pregnant parents andparents of newborns at risk of CPS intervention to try to prevent that intervention or removal of their children. I also administer that legal clinic as well. Along with that I do pro tem work for several courts in Snohomish County; I have significant experience in the Edmonds Municipal Court, as well as pro tem in the Everett, Monroe and Lynnwood Municipal Courts as well as the four county district courts. In the past my practice has included more significant criminal law, protection orders, guardianships, family law, civil litigation, workers compensation. I am also a board member for a local nonprofit, Sound Pathways. In terms of qualities that make me especially qualified for this position, I believe I am hardworking which is an important judicial quality. I'm intellectually curious; I like learning things and like listening to arguments in terms of the law in front of me. The most important characteristic of any judge is empathy and I care about improving things around me. I have diverse work experience, significant administrative experience with myprivate firm and the nonprofit andprogram development experience in the nonprofit and significant experience working with many clients who suffer from substance use disorder along with mental health issues. Along with administrative experience, I have technology and data experience as well. Councilmember Dotsch asked how he planned to manage caseload and prioritize cases. Currently in Edmonds Municipal Court there is a pretty good management system in terms of the caseload. The calendars for example, Wednesdays havepreliminary calendars in the morning and the in -custody calendar in the afternoon, infractions are on Friday. In terms of my management of the caseload, I have significant experience managing the caseloads in the district courts which have very heavy caseloads. Of course community court along with post -conviction matters that are reviewed on Mondays which can be especially heavy calendars in Edmonds, so there have been moments where in terms of managing those calendars, the court needs to take action to ensure cases are heard. Calling cases ready to go, ensuring counsel is ready to go, shifting between the 1, 1: 30 and 2: 30 pm in -custody calendar. I have direct experience in Edmonds Municipal Court effectively managing those calendars in terms of the caseload. From an administrative point of view, staff is well versed in terms of managing the caseload behind the scenes whether that is infractions or criminal cases coming before the court. Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes May 21, 2024 Page 9 Councilmember Nand asked if you he was appointed to Edmonds Municipal Court, did he intend to continue the community court function. Absolutely. I would say the community court function is one of the most exciting reasons for me to apply for and be interested in the position. I'm especially interested in expanding community court. To give some background on my experience, especially with First Legal Clinic, that legal clinic consists of many partners but primarily myself, two of my law partners and two of what we call parent allies, people with lived experience who work with our clients. Since 2019 we've served 800 families. We utilize other parent allies and other attorneys, but it is primarily that core group of people. We work with and help our clients using existing community resources, using case management services such as substance use disorder treatment services, community based services around birth to three services because they serve clients who are pregnant and have newborns. A lot of these services exist and may be overwhelmed and overloaded and are already lookingfor new avenues and ways to serve their clients, meet clients and get referrals. There is a way to use existing community resources to expand the community court. Our legal clinic was asked to help Auburn at their community court and be present once a week. As a small group, we cannot be there once a week, but may be able to dedicate 10-30 minutes where we can be available by phone. There are a lot of options with community providers to do that, not asking them to be at community court as a partner once a week, but provide a way to contact them. I would like to work with the existing community providers in Edmonds and Snohomish County to expand that. Councilmember Paine asked his opinion about alternative dispositions. I think alternative dispositions are an incredibly important tool for the court. There are a lot of tools for the court to effect behavioral change, whether that's a charge itself, conditions of release, conviction itself, post -conviction requirements like treatment, no contact or incarceration, and in terms of that list of tools for the toolbox, alternative dispositions fall right into that. It's an incredible incentive forpeople, whether it is considered a negative or a positive, if there was a finding of guilt and they were able to have that vacated or otherwise dismissed. I think that's an important incentive for many people; not all, because every person's different so different tools need to be used for different people, but for many people it's a powerful tool to effect behavioral change in the goal of reducing recidivism. Council President Olson referred to the dual role of the judge, the all-important role of ruling on issues of justice as well as the manager of the judicial branch of Edmonds' government. She asked what strengths he brings to the management side of the role and would he feel any responsibility to look for cost savings at the court. There's a court rule, GR29, that goes to the administrative function of the court. Edmonds is unique in that it is a one judge court and the responsibilities of administration are related to ensuring cases are run effectively and that justice is properly administered. My strengths are related to my administrative background. I am a partner in ABC Law Group, a law firm that has fluctuated from 8-12 employees over the years I've been a partner depending on needs and staff which is a very similar size to the municipal court and our revenues and expenses are similar. In terms of my other administrative experience with First Legal Clinic, that entailed founding that clinic from scratch in 2019, starting the business entity. I have direct experience working from an administrative point of view in an organization similar in size to the Edmonds Municipal Court which includes budgeting, personnel, administration, technology, and everything you can image that goes on with the administration. Our law firm doesn't have an accountant; that is part of my responsibility. We don't have an IT department, I'm essentially the IT department so significant administration there. Part of my work as a board member of Sound Pathways has included administration and looking at costs. In terms of cost savings that apply to the court, it's no secret what's happening with the municipality, that there are issues related to funding. My view of that is that the court is part of the city team. When it comes to making funding decisions and looking at things in terms of belt - tightening, that's important for the court to look at too. Councilmember Eck said as a municipal court judge, he would be expected to work cooperatively with a variety of staff in the municipal court. She asked how he would go about establishing a relationship with Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes May 21, 2024 Page 10 the staff and therefore trust. I'm fortunate in that I have already worked with the staff a significant amount. I feel I already have a very good relationship with the existing staff in the municipal court. Of course, the change would be from my role as a pro tem coming in to cover versus being the person who would now be the head administrator for the court. I would compare it to what I do at my law firm; I have an open door policy. It's important for everyone to feel they can ask me a question or talk to me. At our law firm, we frequently eat meals together and discuss issues. We have meetings to ensure if there any confusion about policies orprocedures, it is discussed in a team setting, discussed in a way that is collaborative and ideally come to some sort of agreement. There is a great atmosphere with this court and everybody who works here is working together to achieve the things the court is trying to do and really maintain that. It's important to note Edmonds Municipal Court has been an award -winning court in terms of probation services. Maintaining and recognizing that and recognizing things from the staff and not coming in and saying let's change things. Instead keep the trajectory the court has been on which is award -winning and keep that moving forward. Councilmember Tibbott commented as a judge it's possible there could be a defendant who is a repeat offender and have been before the court 2-3 times. He asked how a case like that would be handled, what his approach would be, how he would use the probation system, etc. Of course any decision that comes before me will be a case -by -case decision; it will be different depending on that person's circumstances. Of course, it's a hypothetical question and my answer will be hypothetical. There are a lot of tools in the toolbelt to help someone with behavioral change. I've worked with clients in every range you can imagine, but I've seen people, maybe it's a requirement for treatment, substance use disorder treatment, or regular check -ins with the probation counselor that will change their behavior. Maybe it's having a weekly or monthly court hearing, maybe it's having a discussion with them, hearing them and engaging with them and working with the court in a therapeutic way. It's important to understand the obstacles for people, finding out what's going on that's causing the issue, whether it's mental health and they don't have access to treatment, transportation, insurance, substance use disorder, housing, determining the obstacles the person is experiencing. There are clients for whom being incarcerated made a difference in their life; being incarcerated, having the time to detox, using that time to get inpatient treatment and coming out and having a stable support system. This would be a case -by -case determination, but really understanding that person 's obstacles and reducing their personal recidivism rate. Councilmember Chen commented Edmonds has grown to be a more diversified community, not only in terms of race but also economic, social status and political preference to name a few. As a judge, how do you manage and handle cases from this diverse community. The first step and the tool for dealing with that is what I believe is the most important judicial quality, empathy, understanding where people are coming from and what their circumstances are. As you said, this is a diverse group that comes from all walks of life; really trying to put yourself in someone's shoes and understand their background and how they got where they are now. Not just looking at cases from the standpoint of you're here today because you have this charge and that's what you're here for is to have that adjudicated, but really understanding their background. For the clients I work with, that may be growing up in the foster care system and whether that influenced their behavior. Didyou have issues with being unhoused or substance use issue that led to what's going on? Understanding that and understanding first and foremost that the people appearing in front of you are human, they deserve respect, deserve to have their case heard fairly and approaching every case like that, trying to understand that there can be implicit bias or prejudice against them and trying to avoid that as much as possible in deciding their case. Councilmember Chen commented he is one of the few attorneys with an accounting degree. There are a few that I know, a few who have an accounting undergrad degree surprised him. Councilmember Tibbott asked how becoming a judge in Edmonds would affect his current law practice with ABC Law Group. It's a tough question; the reality is this is a full-time position and I'd have to give that up. There's no easy way to put it; the people I work with are my best friends and it'll be really hard. Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes May 21, 2024 Page 11 Leaving work that I'm passionate about, leaving clients that I care about would be really difficult but at the end of the day, I think this goes back to Councilmember Nand's question about community court, I think there's a lot of really great things and great opportunities with this court that make up for those losses that I would have with my current work circumstances. Councilmember Tibbott pointed out he would also be running for election at some point. That's true as well; it wouldn't be taking up any time. Following up on Councilmember Tibbott's question about failure to stick with a court order, Councilmember Paine asked his thoughts about Moral Reconation Therapy. My understanding is it's an evidenced -based service and therapy. In my experience as an attorney and what used to come up as an issue with previous modalities of domestic violence treatment was the evidence that came out wasn't evidence based. Courts were ordering compelled service that didn't show it reduced recidivism at all and one study showed it actually got worse with the treatment. Domestic Violence Moral Reconation Therapy (DVMRT) was shown to be an evidence -based service and over my career I've seen it replace previous domestic violence therapies. The bottom line is I think evidence based services and therapeutic approaches are the best path to take when trying to effect behavioral change for people. Councilmember Nand asked with the legislative fix for Blake and the recriminalization of simple possession, how can we move beyond the failed war on drugs model and emphasize rehabilitative justice in response to the opioid epidemic. I think it's a huge question because there's so much involved with what goes into substance use disorder. It's really such a multi faceted problem; somebody using just because it's their substance use disorder issue or is it because it's a lack of housing, self -medicating for an ongoing mental health issue, their family circumstances, or incredible stress? The biggest way to resolve it is to make sure that people's basic needs are met, housing, healthcare services including mental health services and substance use disorder treatment, food, getting work if they're able. I personally think that while it's important for our community to look at and expand those issues as much as possible, they're massive issues that frankly go beyond a municipal court and even a municipality to resolve by itself. There are problems that need to be addressed at the state and federal level through funding and those sort of services. That's the most important way to do it, meeting people's basic needs is the most helpful and important way to address chronic substance use disorder. 3. CONVENE IN EXECUTIVE SESSION TO EVALUATE THE QUALIFICATIONS OF AN APPLICANT FOR PUBLIC EMPLOYMENT PER RCW 42.30.110(1)(G) At 6 pm, the Council convened in executive session to evaluate the qualifications of an applicant for public employment per RCW 42.30.110(1)(g) for a period of 30 minutes. EXECUTIVE SESSION EXTENSION At 6:30 p.m., Mayor Rosen announced that the executive session would be extended for 5 minutes. The executive session concluded at 6:35 p.m. 4. RECONVENE IN OPEN SESSION Mayor Rosen reconvened the meeting at 6:35 pm. ADJOURNMENT With no further business, the special council meeting was adjourned at 6:35 pm. Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes May 21, 2024 Page 12 SCOTT PASSEY;tKCLERK Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes May 21, 2024 Page 13