2023-11-14 Special MeetingEDMONDS CITY COUNCIL
SPECIAL MEETING MINUTES
APPROVED MINUTES
November 14, 2023
ELECTED OFFICIALS PRESENT
Neil Tibbott, Council President
Vivian Olson, Councilmember
Will Chen, Councilmember
Diane Buckshnis, Councilmember
Susan Paine, Councilmember
Dave Teitzel, Councilmember
Jenna Nand, Councilmember
ELECTED OFFICIALS ABSENT
Mike Nelson, Mayor
1. CALL TO ORDER/FLAG SALUTE
STAFF PRESENT
Michelle Bennett, Police Chief
Rod Sniffen, Assistant Police Chief
Dave Machado, Commander
Oscar Antillon, Public Works Director
Angie Feser, Parks, Rec., & Human Serv. Dir.
Dave Turley, Administrative Services Director
Rob English, City Engineer
Shannon Burley, Deputy Parks, Rec., & Human
Serv. Dir.
Jeff Taraday, City Attorney
Scott Passey, City Clerk
Jerrie Bevington, Camera Operator
The special Edmonds City Council meeting was called to order at 6 p.m. by Mayor Pro Tem Tibbott in
the Council Chambers, 250 5' Avenue North, Edmonds, and virtually.
2. LAND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT
Councilmember Chen read the City Council Land Acknowledge Statement: "We acknowledge the
original inhabitants of this place, the Sdohobsh (Snohomish) people and their successors the Tulalip
Tribes, who since time immemorial have hunted, fished, gathered, and taken care of these lands. We
respect their sovereignty, their right to self-determination, and we honor their sacred spiritual connection
with the land and water."
3. ROLL CALL
City Clerk Scott Passey called the roll. All elected officials were present with the exception of Mayor
Nelson.
4. APPROVAL OF AGENDA
COUNCILMEMBER TEITZEL MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER PAINE, TO
APPROVE THE AGENDA IN CONTENT AND ORDER. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
5. RECEIVED FOR FILING
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 1
1. WRITTEN PUBLIC COMMENTS
2. PUBLIC WORKS UPDATE 3RD QUARTER 2023
6. AUDIENCE COMMENTS
Peter Moon, Edmonds, a resident on Olympic View Drive, thanked the city council, mayor and
engineering department for listening to their concerns about speeding on Olympic View Dive. The
situation was studied and action is being taken to install four speed tables in the near future which will, 1)
improve public safety for pedestrian, cyclists and residents on Olympic View Drive (all his neighbors are
in favor); 2) result in a reduction in traffic speeds, and 3) potentially reduce the overall traffic volumes
because it will no longer be the fast backdoor in/out of Edmonds. He assured there will be complaints
because people do not like change. He suggested being prepared for those complaints by having an online
form for people to provide their contact information, a description of their complaint, and the reason for
the complaint so that the people complaining are held accountable and it is reasonable to listen to all
comments pro and con. He thanked the City for taking their concerns seriously, studying the matter and
taking action which will benefit the community as a whole.
Greg Goodman, Edmonds, Mr. Moon's neighbor, thanked the council and staff for listening to them,
analyzing the data and recognizing there was a hazard. He acknowledged not everyone would like the
calming tables, but he anticipated they would get over it. For the councilmembers who are moving on, he
thanked them for their service. He recognized traffic is an issue all over City, commenting on an issue he
experienced yesterday at the 4-way stop at the fountain on 5t1i & Main. He suggested doing something
there like a signal because currently drivers don't stop and pedestrians crisscross across the street.
7. CONSENT AGENDA
COUNCILMEMBER PAINE MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCIL PRESIDENT PRO TEM
OLSON, TO APPROVE THE CONSENT AGENDA. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY. The
agenda item approved is as follows:
AUTHORIZING VACATION ACCRUAL FOR A CAPITAL PROJECTS MANAGER
CANDIDATE
8. COUNCIL BUSINESS
RED LIGHT CAMERA PRESENTATION
Police Chief Michelle Bennett introduced Assistant Police Chief Rod Sniffen and Commander Dave
Machado and advised there is a Verra Mobility representative available virtually to answer technical
questions related to the system. She explained the presentation is designed to address some
misconceptions and clarify why red light cameras are proposed. She reviewed:
• Decision package 7
o The proposed red-light cameras enforcement system (assuming approval and agreement
modification) will take several months into 2024 to engineer, install and incorporate into the
eco-system we are currently designing for school zone cameras
o For 2024, best case scenario is having them operational by May, so for the remaining eight
months of the year they would be functional
■ For 2025 and beyond, they would be operational year-round
■ There is a 30-day warning period
o In justification section: 3-5 red light camera intersections proposed as a pilot program
• Comparable data
o The intersections suggested are the highest volume intersection related accidents.
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
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o The cities of Lynnwood and Lake Forest Park have red-light cameras, many other agencies
(Everett, Bothell) are also looking at them.
o The city of Lynnwood is a relevant comparable city
0 2022 Annual Automated Traffic Safety Camera Report
Lynnwood Police Department
Per RCW 46.63.170 cities using automated traffic safety cameras must post an
annual report of the number of traffic accidents that occurred at each location where
an automated traffic safety camera is located. as well as the number of notices of
infraction issued for each camera on the City's website. The below data comprises
the number of accidents and citations issued at each respective intersection and
school zone where traffic safety cameras are deployed.
Intersection
Number of Citations
'Number of
Accidents
36" / 196th St S.W.
6,070
3
44"' /Ald. Man Blvd.
3,514
8 "
44th / 1961h St S.W.
0 - Under Construction,
6
18411 / Ald. Mall Pkwy
4,728
6
1961h / Ald. Mall Pkwy
14,163
2
Maple / Ald. Mall Pkwy
1,900
3
19611 l Hwy 99
2,834
5
44-/2001°StS.W.
5,063
8 "
Hwy 99 / 2001h St S.W.
1,164
3
School Zone
Number of
Citations
Number of
Accidents
18200 -18800 BILK 44th Ave West
4,175
1
5500 - 6600 BLK 168th St S.W.
2,660
4
-number or "ccaems reporrea renew conisions occurring wmmn me mrerseaion.
e Red light camera accident reductions
Lynnwood Red Light Camera Collisions
o In 10 years, 114% decrease inactions. Although there was a small upward trend in the last 2-
3 years minor, there has been a significant reduction in accidents.
e Edmonds Proposed Pilot red light cameras program: Collision data
o Data for the intersections from 2020-2022 was collected
o These intersections were considered based off collision data, as well as with input from the
officers who investigate collisions the most
o Officers also considered their observations of high pedestrian areas and areas of citizen
complaints
Commander Machado provided anecdotal evidence of what he sees while on patrol on a daily basis, all
hours of the day as his shifts fluctuate between days and graveyard hours. He assured if he left the station
now and made his way to 220t' & Highway 99 going through a number of these intersections, as someone
who tends to observe and in spite of being in a police car, in uniform and performing the function of
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
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traffic enforcement, he would likely see violations of this type at each intersection. As to why he doesn't
do something about it, he explained the function of traffic enforcement and the ability to observe red-light
violations are two different things. For example, if he is 1-2 cars back at the intersection of 84t'' & 220th he
may see a violation, a near miss, which is often overlooked in the aggregate of the danger margin. When
he is 1-2 cars back, he likely would be unable to do anything about the red-light violator due to the speed,
transition to the intersection and ability to get into a position to do something. State law requires to
enforce that infraction, he or one of his partners must see it happen. For example, if Assistant Chief
Sniffen was at the other side of the intersection, he could tell him and he could intervene. In the big
scheme of things, it is a relatively high labor function to intervene and create a safety margin to deal with
one motorist doing a red light violation.
Commander Machado explained the police's function is safety so when they can, they make an effort to
intervene. The difference between face-to-face intervention and technology -based intervention is
dramatic. A technology intervention as it relates to modifying human behavior as a driver approaches the
dangerous process of arriving at an intersection is an opportunity to leverage the safety parameter. From
the human performance and human behavior, it is usually mostly human behavior because when a driver
sees a yellow light, they are supposed to slow down, analyze the circumstances and proceed with caution,
that is generally the most risky behavior.
Chief Bennett continued her presentation
• Accidents: Three years of data 2020-2022 in proposed intersections
o Intersections were researched based on traffic volumes and high numbers of accidents
Location and Accident Data: Car Volume per day
0 220t' & Highway 99: 10 accidents, 20,000 cars/day
0 220t' & 76t'': 13 accidents, 12,000 cars/day
0 212t' & 76t'': 15 accidents, 6,000 cars/day
o Highway 104 & 100t1i: 6 accidents, 13,000 cars/day
0 238t' & Highway 99: 4 accidents, 20,000 cars/day
0 228t' & Highway 99: 2 accidents, 16,000 cars/day
Accident data for above accidents was reviewed by Chief Bennett and Sergeant Strum
Chief Bennett explained her friends own a driving school; they show a video that asks how many
accidents are okay. For her, any accident should be prevented, the target is zero. The way she looks at the
data, the intersection with 15 accidents in a 3-year period, that is 15 too many and illustrates there is a
problem at that intersection. She noted the accidents are ones that actually resulted in cars crashing, it
does not include near misses or issues with that type of driving behavior. The number one complaint the
police department receives is speeding and cars driving recklessly. It is not unusual that the police
department would try to address this behavior since it is the number one complaint. With the police
department's limited resources, they do in -person traffic enforcement, but in addition to being short
staffed, they cannot be everywhere because the City is large geographically and there are 16,000-20,000
cars on Highway 99 per day. A lot of those drivers don't live in Edmonds, but they still use the roadways
and their driving behaviors potentially putting drivers at risk.
Assistant Chief Rod Sniffen explained Verra Mobility is the contractor the City is using for the school
zone camera project. They are well known and do this work throughout the country including many
systems in Washington State. He displayed a sample of the analysis performed by Verra Mobility that the
RCW requires before installing red-light cameras. Their analysis looks at traffic volumes, topography,
and many other factors that go into an algorithm that determines an SLS factor that rates intersections for
automated enforcement. He reviewed:
• Highest rating per Verra Mobility (combined with accidents and average per day car volume)
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
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0 220t' & Highway 99: 5.3 (10 accidents) 20,000 cars/day
0 238t' & Highway 99, southbound: 4.72 (4 accidents) 20,000 cars/day
0 228t' & Highway 99: 4.05 (2 accidents) 16,000 cars/day
0 212t' & 76t' Northbound: 4.08 (15 accidents) 6,000 cars/day
0 212t' & 76t' Westbound: 4.06 (15 accidents) 6,000 cars/day
0 212t' & 76t' Eastbound: 3.99 (15 accidents) 6,000 cars/day
0 238' & Highway 99, Northbound: 3.91 (4 accidents) 16,000 cars/day
o Highway 104 & 100t1i Southbound: 3.5 (6 accidents) 13,000 cars/day
o Highway 104 & 100t1i Northbound: 3.42 (6 accidents) 13,000 cars/day
o Highway 104 & 100t' Westbound: 3.19 (6 accidents) 13,000 cars/day
Chief Bennett continued:
• Other intersections with high traffic volume and ratings but not currently proposed
o SR 99 & 216th: 20,000 cars per day, Verra Rating — 3.68
o SR 99 & 224t'': 16,000 cars per day, Verra Rating — 3.41
o SR 99 & 212t'': 20,000 cars per day, Verra Rating — 3.1
Chief Bennett added if this was simply a funding mechanism, there would be cameras proposed at all the
intersections. That is not the proposal, the proposal is to address traffic safety. Assistant Chief Sniffen
said Verra Mobility considers a rating of 2.7 or higher a viable location for a traffic camera system. Chief
Bennett said that is a result of Verra's data analysis and observing red-light camera infractions. Though
there may not be as many accidents at these intersections, there are clearly red light running occurring.
Pedestrian Accidents
o 20t' & Highway 99 — 1
o 212t'&76h-2
o Hwy 104 & 100t1i — 0
0 238t' & Highway 99 — 0
0 238t' & Highway 99 — 0
0 228t' & Highway 99 - 0
Empirical Research says:
o Road crashes are a prime cause of death and disability and red-light running is a common
cause of crashes at signalized intersections
■ Red-light cameras are increasingly used to promote compliance with traffic signals
■ Manual enforcement methods are resource intensive and high risk, whereas red-light
cameras can operate 24 hours a day and do not involve high speed pursuits
o More than one million crashes occur annually at traffic signals in the United States and red-
light cameras increasingly are being used to supplement police enforcement efforts by
automatically photographing vehicles whose drivers run red lights
o Red light running at signalized intersections is a significant problem in the United States; it
results in more than 95,000 crashes and approximately 1,000 deaths per year
■ Red light camera systems aimed at reducing this problem have become a popular tool in
local jurisdictions
Today's My Edmonds News:
o In Washington state, traffic fatalities were up 38% last year compared with 2019, reaching a
30-year high. In response, the state is considering expanding its limited speed camera use.
State officials plan a visit to Finland next month to see how that country used automated
enforcement to reduce traffic deaths
o "Law enforcement has really stepped back from enforcing traffic law," said Jonathan Adkins,
CEO of the Governors Highway Safety Association. "We have to get police back out there
and get support for police back. But this has to be done the right way, and it has to be done
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November 14, 2023
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fairly. And we do want to look at technology - cameras don't see race, they don't see
gender."
o Edmonds police on Sunday afternoon were called to the scene of a vehicle collision in the
Perrinville neighborhood where two pedestrians were struck near 76t' Avenue West and
Olympic View Drive. Both patients were transported to Seattle's Harborview Medical
Center.
• Seven empirical studies related to red light cameras, all indicating red light cameras are effective
at reducing total casualty crashes
o Academic research
National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, Medicine
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety
- Article entitled "Effects of turning off and on red-light cameras on fatal crashes in
large U.S. Cities." All fatal crashes at signalized intersections in 14 cities that
terminated camera programs during 2010-14 were 30 and 16 percent higher,
respectively, after cameras were turned off than would have been expected had
cameras remained.
- Article entitled, "Effects of red light camera enforcement on red light violations in
Arlington County, Virginia." Consistent with prior research, red light violations at
camera -enforced intersections declined significantly. Reductions were greater the
longer after the light turned red, when violations are more likely to cause crashes.
Safety Evaluationof Red -Light Cameras, Federal Highway Administration
- Similar in direction but somewhat smaller in magnitude than those indicated in past
studies. Right-angle crashes (the surrogate for red-light running crashes) decrease
significantly.
National Library of Medicine
- Article entitled, "Effects of red light running camera systems installation and then
deactivation on intersection safety." The results indicate statistically significant
collision reductions on all red-light running (RLR) crash types (37%) as well as right-
angle RLR crashes (47%) at the treated intersections after RLC activation.
- Article entitled, "Red-light cameras for the prevention of road traffic crashes."
Authors' conclusions: red-light cameras are effective in reducing total casualty
crashes
- Article entitled "Reductions in injury crashes associated with red light camera
enforcement in Oxnard, California." Overall, crashes at signalized intersections
throughout Oxnard were reduced by 7% and injury crashes were reduced by 29%.
Right angle crashes, those most associated with red light violations, were reduced by
32%; right angle crashes involving injuries were reduced by 68%. Because red light
cameras can be a permanent component of the transportation infrastructure, crash
reductions attributed to camera enforcement should be sustainable.
Journal of Safety Research
TRB Annual Meeting
- Article entitled, "Evaluation of red-light camera enforcement in Fairfax, VA, USA."
One year after enforcement began, violation rates were lower at all camera and
noncamera sites. Overall reductions at the five camera sites were 7% 3 months after
enforcement began and 44% after one year.
• Didn't some cities do away with red light cameras?
o Called Kent Police Chief Padilla, "Heck no, they are very effective for the city, we are
actually adding six more. Also funded our body worn camera program." When asked if year-
end collisions increased, he stated they have actually gone down.
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
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o Communicated with Redmond Police Lieutenant Julie Bear and Chief Darrell Lowe, "We had
them in around 2012 for several months. Microsoft lobbied hard (with company attorneys
assisting) against them. We've been talking about putting them back."
o Communication sent to Burien Chief Ted Boe, who said they have "not had them in at least
six years, speculated reason for removal was labor based, lowest staffed city and most calls
per service in King County; no new officers in 12 years. No traffic cars or motor officers
assigned to the city. We have 26 cops to handle 21,000 calls per year."
o Kenmore is adding two cameras this year
o Everett is also considering adding traffic cameras
o Edmonds decision last year to start with school zone cameras and then look at red-light
cameras
Recommended Pilot Program Red -Light Camera Sites: Three intersections with highest number
of accidents, highest daily traffic and highest rating from Verra Mobility of people running red
lights
1. 220' & Highway 99: 5.3 (10 accidents) 20,000 cars/day
o One approach
2. 212' & 76t'': 4.08 (15 accidents) 6,000 cars/day
o Three approaches
3. Highway 104 & 100t1i: 3.5 (6 accidents) 13,000 cars/day
o Three approaches
Potential intersections for future evaluation
1. 238t1i & Highway 99 Southbound: 4.72 (4 accidents) 20,000 cars/day
2. 228' & Highway 99: 4.05 (2 accidents) 16,000 cars/day
Are the costs of the cameras offset or will they cost the city additional money?
o Verra charges $5,000/camera/month
■ Seven cameras would be $35,000 total/month
o Court costs: monthly 2,475 tickets = $17,859 + $5,000 (est. cost $24,900 per month) 2,475
tickets a month would be 82.5/day = 11 per camera/day
o Police costs are currently neutral
■ 2,475 tickets per month x $130 average fine = $321,000
- $24,900 costs
- $262,000 delta in the positive per month and $3,144,000/year
■ 1680 tickets per month x $130 average fine = $262,000
- $21,700 costs
- $229,300 delta in the positive per month and $2,751,600/year
What is the impact related to court costs?
o In Lynnwood Municipal Court, 18.5% of people who received parking citations in 2022
requested a hearing
■ Individuals who request a hearing may choose whether to appear in -person or remotely
■ IRLJ 2.6 requires that hearings be set within 120 days from the date of the notice of
infraction
o Edmonds Municipal Court (EMC) currently conducts pro se infractions hearings on the
second and fourth Fridays of the month
■ These hearings take place from 9 a.m. to 12 p.m., and 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.
■ Current calendars allow for 80 pro se infraction hearings per month
■ Typically, ten infraction hearings are scheduled per hour, which provides an average of
six minutes per hearing
■ Workload impact assuming 2,475 red light citations per month with 18.5% of individuals
cited requesting a hearing, this will result in an additional 458 infraction hearings per
month. This is a 572% increase in the number of infraction hearings that EMC conducts
each month
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November 14, 2023
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- The increase in hearings would require EMC to move from infractions being held on
two days per month to 13.5 days per month
Assuming 2,475 citations per month, EMC estimates that the increased court clerk
workload from red-light cameras would require an additional 2 to 3 FTEs
- The annual salary of a court clerk at Step 1 is $65,184. Including benefits, the total
annual cost for one court clerk is $84,739
- This would result in a monthly cost per court clerk of $7,061
- If two additional court clerks were needed, the monthly cost would be $14,122
- If three additional court clerks were needed, the monthly cost would be $21,183
Additional capacity could be created by increasing pro tempore judge budget and brining
in an additional judicial officer to preside over additional calendars
- This would result in an estimated additional cost of $3,337 per month
Assuming 2,475 citations per month, EMC estimates that its increased monthly costs
would be between $17,859 and $24,920
Assuming a total of 1,60 citations per month with 18.5% of individuals cited requesting a
hearing, this will result in an additional 311 infraction hearings per month.
- This is a 389% increase in the number of infraction hearings that EMC conducts each
month
■ The increase in hearings would require EMC to move from infraction hearings being held
two days per month to ten days per month
■ Additional capacity can be created by increasing the pro tempore judge budget and
bringing in an additional judicial officer to preside over additional calendars. This would
result in an estimated additional cost of $2,600 per month.
■ Assuming 1,680 citations per month, EMC estimates that the increased court clerk
workload from red light cameras would require an additional 2 FTEs. EMC estimates that
its increased monthly costs would be $16,722.
What are the impacts to Police?
o Conservatively, based on conversations with Lynnwood PD, it takes approximately one
minute to review three tickets
o In speaking with the Edmonds traffic sergeant, this workload would be split up among
multiple officers, thereby minimizing the workload and staying current with the volume
o The infraction that is sent to the violator with a picture of the violation, the steps on how to
respond to the infraction, and a hyperlink to view a video f the violation online
■ The steps on how to respond to the infraction are decided by the court
■ There is a boilerplate narrative from police on each ticket
0 2,475 tickets per month, divided by 3 tickets a minute = 825 minutes per month (or 13.75
hours/month)
0 1,680 tickets per month, divided by 3 tickets a minute = 560 minutes per month (or 9.3
hours/month)
o Does not require additional staffing at this time.
What does the offender get in the mail?
o Notice of the violation that identifies options and includes links to video
What the offender sees when the click on the hyperlink
o Video and/or image associated with violation
o Additional resources
What about school zones?
o Schools in Edmonds currently in the process of getting cameras
■ Chase Lake Elementary
■ Westgate Elementary
■ Edmonds-Woodway High School
■ Scriber Lake High School
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November 14, 2023
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o To add additional school zone cameras, we would have to request the vendor come out and
do a speed study to determine whether that specific school would qualify for a speed camera
o Cameras should be up in January
o There is a 30-day warning period
Councilmember Paine thanked Chief Bennett for the fantastic information. She recalled a public comment
last week that the City should not install red light cameras because they are heavy handed and do not take
into consideration other options. She appreciated the police department's lens of using safety controls
better. As Commander Machado said, there is a need for situational awareness at every intersection. She
asked how car versus pedestrian near misses are calculated, assuming there was a mathematical equation
that provides a ratio for every person hit, there have been numerous near misses. Commander Machado
referred to 220t1i & Highway 99 which is one of the intersection proposed for the pilot which has seven
north -south lanes and five east -west lanes. The features of a red light violator tend to include an
acceleration of speed and a follow through with very little time and responsiveness. A pedestrian in that
situation who is managing their movement lawfully and responsibility utilizing pedestrian signals, as they
receive a walk signal and begin crossing, that near miss factor becomes extremely problematic because
everyone involved must engage in a perception reality; the walker may need to stop suddenly, other
drivers about to get the green have to pause.
Commander Machado realized that explanation did not answer Councilmember Paine's question with
specificity related to data sets, but that is the anecdotal reality of what happens light cycle to light cycle.
There are so many moving parts and the idea of automated enforcement endeavors to create an
environment where drivers approach an intersection with due caution and attentiveness that the realities of
12 lanes requires.
Councilmember Paine said she was hoping for a ratio but understood that would be a tough calculation.
She wanted to apply that to the pedestrian environment impacts in neighborhoods and if there were any
noted human behavior characterization at camera -enforced intersections. She recalled from drivers ed, the
pedestrian has the right-of-way at any intersection. She asked if situational awareness and drivers'
behavior changed at intersections in areas surrounding a camera -enforced intersection. Assistant Chief
Sniffen answered data regarding near miss collisions is typically not collected. Human behavior tends to
improve at intersections near a camera controlled intersection because drivers may be unsure which
intersections are controlled. Putting cameras at 220t1i & Highway 99 would likely impact human behavior
at nearby entrances and exits and even up to 84t1i.
Chief Bennett clarified the goal is not to ticket anyone, the goal is for drivers to follow the law. She was
confused by people complaining about red light cameras because drivers are either following the law or
they are not. She did not want to cite anyone and would love for the program to be a dismal failure
although she knew it would not. The goal is to change behavior. Drivers receive ample warning of a
camera controlled intersection including signs and notification from navigation apps. Running a red light
is very risky behavior that could and often does lead to an accident. The mere signage changes driver
behavior. She may or may not have received a red light ticket and she now approaches red lights with
caution. She noted pedestrians often do not look as they walk into the street because they have the right-
of-way.
Commander Machado said when he pulls someone over on a traffic violation, he often tells them,
"nobody needs another bill in their life." His friend got a red light camera ticket and told everyone how
upset they were about it. He welcomed that and hoped drivers would tell others. The process of driving a
motor vehicle in an intersection involves numerous variables that require a human to do a bunch of things
at the same time. He compared it to trying to parallel park while your dog is barking and you are listening
to your favorite song as loud as possible. That driver would probably turn down the radio, tell their dog to
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November 14, 2023
Page 9
be quiet so they could parallel park. That process is effectively the same collection of things that humans
have to do when they arrive at an intersection. If people can be empowered to make good choices as they
are meandering in the roadway particularly as they arrive at an intersection, that maximizes capacity to
create a safer environments. Councilmember Paine commented she would be in therapy for the rest of her
life if she hit and killed someone.
Council President Pro Tem. Olson said because this was brought up as a budget revenue first, she was
very predisposed to be against it and that is what the council is also hearing from residents, that it is not
responsible to begin looking at this as a revenue source. She listened to the presentation with interest and
is definitely thinking about the information provided and good points were made. She thanked the police
department for putting together such a good presentation and for providing the data. She specifically
appreciated, 1) so many of the intersections where people run red lights, but may not generate a lot of
accidents, red light cameras would not be installed there, and 2) the explanation of why cities with red
light cameras are discontinuing them and the three examples. She did not understand the explanation
about labor being a reason Burien discontinued their cameras. Chief Bennett explaining Burien does not
have any traffic officers or sergeants to review the tickets. Burien has very high traffic counts and likely
generated a high volume of tickets. When a department is that short staffed on patrol, it creates a perfect
storm of who will review the tickets within the required 15 days. She recalled hearing from Burien, "it
just became such a hassle." She did not think it had anything to do with traffic safety; it was related to the
need for officers to review each ticket and Burien did not have the staff to do that.
Council President Pro Tern Olson referred to hardship and people unable to pay, she wanted there to be a
consequence in fairness to the process and in support of the idea of trying to change behavior such as
requiring an hour of community service and not just letting those drivers off the hook. Chief Bennett
answered that is a court process; the EMC is pretty good about hardship and alternatives to monetary
penalty.
Council President Pro Tern Olson commented due to the fact that this was brought up as budget revenue
first, she probably will not support it as part of the budget process. However, outside of the budget
process, if after studying all the materials it seemed like a good idea, a policy could be adopted and the
program added as a budget amendment. The issue of fairness in fact or in appearance is part of the
public's perception. Chief Bennett commented this was discussed length last year with the mayor and
amongst themselves and it had nothing to do with the budget. Her original idea when the school zone
cameras were considered was to also do red light cameras knowing the traffic safety issues in the City,
car -pedestrian accidents and vehicular accidents. When she asked the mayor about red light cameras, he
suggested baby steps and starting with school zone cameras and see how those go. There were a lot of
kinks to work out with the school zone cameras but once they learned red light cameras could be added as
an addendum to the contract, it seemed like a reasonable pilot program to start to impact driver behavior
especially with the increase in traffic accidents and fatalities. Council President Pro Tern Olson said most
people have noticed an uptick in reckless driving, not just speeding that exceeds the limit by 5 mph but
20+ mph.
Councilmember Teitzel thanked the police department for the additional data. He was not inherently
opposed to the concept, recognizing there was good rationale. However, he agreed with Council President
Pro Tern Olson that coming to the council in the sausage making process of the budget gives the
appearance of it being a revenue related issue. He recognized Chief Bennett felt it was a safety related
issue but the optics aren't good. He believed it should be decoupled from the budget and considered next
year as a separate item to give the new council time to dig into the information which the council saw for
the first time tonight as much of this data was not in the decision package. There is lot of nuance and
detail as well as a lot of citizen concern that needs to be considered before proceeding. He reiterated he
was not inherently opposed to the idea but it needed further analysis and research by council.
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 10
Councilmember Teitzel referred to cities that have had cameras and removed them. It was his
understanding Burien and Auburn removed their cameras and asked if Chief Bennett spoke to those
police departments about the rationale. Chief Bennett said she mentioned Burien in her presentation and it
was her understanding that Auburn still has red light cameras, but she could doublecheck.
Councilmember Teitzel said he read Auburn was removing their cameras. Council needs to see data from
those cities to see what caused that decision. He concluded more consideration and time was needed so he
would not support including red light cameras in the budget process, but would certainly support
considering it second quarter 2024.
Councilmember Chen expressed appreciation for the detailed analysis and the pilot project approach. He
recalled going to the Chief Bennett's office a year ago after receiving numerous complaints about
speeding and driver behavior and ways to mitigate those situations. Red light cameras was one of the
recommendations. He recognized the desire for public safety drives this proposal, but in terms of how this
works with the budget, he questioned the estimate of $3.5 million in revenue in the proposed budget when
the cameras at three intersections would be operational May -December. Chief Bennett answered the
numbers she provided are for the three intersections. She noted the three members of the police
department who are present have about 100 years of collective experience and are all very interested in
safety. With regard to the perceptions about this as a budget item, she assured this was brought up a year
ago. She cannot control discussions that were or were not happening, but this is something she has been
asking about for two years. Now that the Verra Mobility contract is in place, it is a great time to add red
light cameras.
Chief Bennett reiterated the goal would be to write no tickets, but the data sets show it is cost neutral. If
implementing red light cameras sooner rather than later can save one accident, two accidents, three
accidents, ten accidents, or one fatality, as public servants and stewards of the city, they have a duty to do
that. Politics aside, there is a duty related to public safety and traffic safety as that is the top complaint by
residents. She wanted it to be clear that from the police department's viewpoint that this is a safety issue.
Councilmember Chen said he also has a friend who received a red light camera citation in Lynnwood and
was in total denial, but when they clicked on the link and saw themselves rolling through the light, they
were convinced they ran the red light and their behavior changed, driving more cautiously and telling
their friends about it.
Councilmember Buckshnis commented she is a huge code, process and policy person and has a very good
memory. She did not recall the police department bringing this to council in the past. She recalled the
council discussing school zone cameras and recommending they be included in the CIP/CFP. She
recognized Chief Bennett may have discussed red light cameras with Councilmember Chen, but she did
not recall the council ever discussing them on the dais. If the council had, she definitely would have
recommended having information brought to council early in the year followed by a very process -oriented
examination. Doing it this way, the council is on the firing end, getting snowballs thrown at them. Chief
Bennett agreed she did not bring it to council, she brought it to the mayor after talking with
Councilmember Chen and other citizens concerned about traffic safety. The process that was discussed
was to start slow and steady with school zone cameras. It was a cautious approach to try a pilot program
and see how the system and vendor worked with the school zone cameras and then move into red light
cameras. That was discussed with the mayor almost two years ago.
Chief Bennett acknowledged what Councilmember Buckshnis was saying, but when she looks at being
pelted with snowballs versus someone being hit by a car, she was interested in what could be done as
soon as humanly possible to mitigate traffic accidents and potential car -pedestrian or other incidents in
intersections. Command staff all do monthly ridealongs and almost every one includes an intersection
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 11
traffic accident. Councilmember Buckshnis said she was not discounting the police department's
experience, but she was not a kneejerk type of person. This could be presented to the new council in six
months and they can hold a noticed public hearing, get information well before 2:30 p.m. and make a
thoughtful decision. She suggested it was a great idea to research. She does not speed herself but knew
there was a lot of speeding in areas such as Olympic View Drive. She preferred to issue tickets to people
to prevent speeding. The first day she lived in Edmonds, she got a ticket which is why she never speeds.
Chief Bennett recognized that changed driver behavior. Councilmember Buckshnis said she has not seen
many motorcycle cops issuing tickets although she was impressed with the statistics. She wanted to move
very thoughtfully with this so all the citizens are on the same page. Chief Bennett commented due to the
staffing shortage, there is only one motor officer and one motor sergeant. It has been announced but no
officers have expressed interest. Although it would be great to do a lot of traffic enforcement, the
department simply doesn't have the staff.
Commander Machado said minimum staffing is the least amount of officers that can be on duty on any
given 12-hour shift/watch; the department is at or below minimum every day, below minimum means an
officer working overtime to fulfill the need. Minimum staffing is significant bare bones functionality from
the standpoint of responding to 911 calls. The police department never closes and will always be there,
but bottom line, staffing is an issue. Councilmember Buckshnis said she was impressed with the data
provided and could commiserate with staffing issues. However, as an old policy wonk, she is all about
code, process and policy.
Councilmember Nand thanked Chief Bennett, Judge Rivera and Court Administrator Maylor for
responding to her questions. She referred to the $3.5 million revenue generated by this program in 2024 in
decision package 7 which equates to 29,700 tickets/year, and requiring 2-3 additional FTEs for the court
and an additional pro tem judge which would add $299,040/year. She urge councilmembers to consider
whether they want to issue 29,700 tickets/year to generate an income target of $3.5million in revenue and
whether the City was prepared to add additional FTEs to the court. She referred to Chief Bennett's
comment that there may be a need to add a traffic cop to review red light camera footage and asked how
much that would cost. Chief Bennett answered this is a pilot program and those costs are unknown until
the program is instituted. If the workload was much greater than the estimated 13 hours/month or if
staffing drops further, an FTE may need to be added. She reiterated the cost offset delta would cover that
cost; if it is a workload issue, the revenue would cover the position. Councilmember Nand pointed out it
would lessen the amount of net revenue generated for the City and wanted to ensure that was being
accounted for.
Councilmember Nand pointed out there are many things that can be done to address public safety on City
streets including radar signs, speed bumps, etc. She thanked the police department for bringing this
forward, but wanted to look at all the options and ensure there was a clear understanding of the costs
associated with this program versus looking at it as a budget plug of $3.5 million.
Mayor Pro Tem Tibbott observed there are a lot of accidents at the intersection of 212th & 76'1i near
Edmonds-Woodway High School which was concerning due to the number of pedestrians. He observed
there would be school zone cameras in that area and asked if would make sense to see how the school
zone cameras affect the data for the intersection or was having both a good idea. Chief Bennett said in her
opinion both were a good idea to slow drivers in a school zone as well as not run red lights. It would be
great if having school zone cameras caused people to pay more attention to their driving. Aside from
revenue, the goal is to keep community members safe. The department's ideal would not to issue any
tickets because everyone is paying attention, no one runs a red light and no one speeds. Unfortunately,
human behavior doesn't work that way. Even in Lynnwood where cameras have existed for 10 years, that
has not negated the number of red light offenders.
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 12
Chief Bennett continued, from a traffic and public safety standpoint and as the mother of four children
who attend school, school zone cameras and red light cameras are imperative to provide safety for
community members. If it just saves one life, it will be worthwhile. She reiterated the goal is no tickets,
so if people are following the law, she was baffled by their fears. It is important to stop at red lights and
not to speed in school zone; that is taught in drivers' ed and it is state law. According to scientific studies,
every mile per hour is another percentage chance of death for a child. Any measure that can be taken to
reduce the number one complaint, traffic, the City is obligated to do.
9. PUBLIC HEARING
1. PUBLIC HEARING ON INSTALLATION OF RED LIGHT CAMERAS
Mayor Pro Tem Tibbott opened the public hearing.
Janelle Cass, Edmonds, thanked the police department for their wonderful presentation and data. As a
mom and an engineer, safety is very important to her. When she drives through Lynnwood, she has
yellow light anxiety. For a long time, she would not drive in Lynnwood because although she is a
confident driver, she wasn't not sure she was doing it right. As a safety professional, she asked what
metrics were used, and what was the goal. She heard Chief Bennett say zero or no accidents and
questioned whether that was feasible and whether policy could be established based on that. She asked
whether the goal would be one accident per million cars or one in 10,000 as that is an important design
factor in figuring out what the City wants to do for safety. She ran a few numbers, for the intersection of
220t1' & Highway 99, it is 1.8 accidents per million cars, 220'1' & 76 is .99 accidents per million cars, 212'1'
& 76' is 2.28 accidents per million cars, SR 104 & 100t1i is .4 accidents per million cars, and 238'1i & Hwy
99 is .18 per million cars. She requested as council makes their decision to look the total picture, and
come up with attainable goals, anticipating zero was unreasonable.
Ken Reidy, Edmonds, said it is unfortunate the council has allowed the police department to take the
legislative lead on this matter because that results in citizens who disagree with the legislation having to
take a stance opposite the police department which is not something most citizens want to do. He wants to
support the police department and not arguing with them over a legislative matter. This is council's role,
council with the legislative authority must prepare the analysis. Council is the entity that should initiate
this and should be the legislative lead on this matter. He urged the council not to pit citizens against the
police department because he wants to support them. Unfortunately the presentation regarding red light
cameras was not provided in advance which provided little time to digest the presentation before the
public hearing. He referred to mention in the presentation of Lynnwood safety data between the years of
2012 and 2022 and that there has been significant reduction in accidents during that time. That is not the
complete story, the 2017 Lynnwood automated traffic safety camera report states the number of accidents
reported reflects collisions occurring within the intersection. Prior year reports included accidents
occurring upon approach but not necessarily within the intersection. Lynnwood changed their reporting in
2017 so it is inaccurate to say their accident data has gone down over that time.
Mr. Reidy continued, with regard to what happened last year, at the February 7, 2023 city council
meeting, Councilmember Paine asked Assistant Chief Rod Sniffen if there was any intention to have
Edmonds move to red light cameras and he said no, there is no plan to move to red light cameras.
Councilmember Paine asked about right turn cameras and the answer was none. He asked what changed
over the last eight months. Typically when a driver approaches a traffic light, it isn't yellow, it is green
and drivers have to consider what to do if the light suddenly turns yellow. He recommended if the council
proceeds, to install a countdown clock on the traffic signal so people approaching the intersection know
when the light will turn from green to yellow. That technology exists and would do amazing things to
eliminate rearend collisions caused by red light cameras. He urged the council to end consideration of this
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 13
matter at this point in time. Should council want to prepare a study in the future, he urged them to follow
the RCW and ensure the council is the legislative lead.
Finis Tupper, Edmonds, thanked Chief Bennett for the presentation, commenting he found some of the
information very interesting. It would have been nicer to have the information available a few days before
the meeting, but that seems to be the modius operandi on this subject, sandbag the public and not provide
information. He quoted from page 17 of the approved minutes of February 7, 2023 council meeting where
all councilmembers, Mayor Nelson and City Attorney Jeff Taraday were present, "In response to audience
comment, Councilmember Paine asked if there was any intent to have Edmonds install red light cameras.
Assistant Chief Sniffen answered there is no plan to install red light cameras in this program.
Councilmember Paine asked if there were plans to install right hand turn cameras. Assistant Chief Sniffen
answered there was not." RCW 46.73.170 is very clear and he suggested the council review Resolution
1514 passed on February 21, 2023 which states Whereas the statute authorizes the use of automated
traffic safety cameras by local jurisdictions in among other areas school speed zones, school walk areas,
provided that before enacting an ordinance or allowing for the use of such cameras, the appropriate local
legislative authority first prepares an analysis of the location within the jurisdiction where automated
traffic safety cameras are proposed to be located. The February 7 and 21, 2023 agendas do not include
that traffic study; it was never provided to the public and similar to what is going on now, the police
department has not provided any traffic analysis. He assumed the only reason the red light cameras are
being proposed is because there is a humpty dumpty budget, a $3.5 million deficit, that needs to be fixed
and he recommended not fixing the budget this way.
Deborah Arthur, Edmonds, said she has a lot of respect for the Edmonds Police Department and
appreciated Chief Bennett's presentation. She accidentally drove through a red light camera in the past
and due to a car tailgating, had to make a decision whether to go through on the yellow or stop and get
rearended. She drove through on the yellow, got a red light camera ticket and paid the ticket after seeing
the video. A Wikipedia article described Finland's practice of basing ticket amounts on income and one
executive's ticket amount was two weeks' salary. She was not proposing that. From what she has heard
tonight, the red light cameras seem like a good idea because she believed in deterrents. She has seen
drivers run stop signs and red lights throughout Edmonds. The police department would not propose this
if they didn't think it was necessary. She hoped the council would decide to implement red light cameras.
She disagreed with Councilmember Nand's comment that people wouldn't shop in Edmonds if there were
red light cameras.
With no further public comment, Mayor Pro Tem Tibbott closed the public hearing.
10. COUNCIL BUSINESS - CONTINUED
1. PROPOSED 2024-2029 CAPITAL FACILITIES PLAN & CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT
PROGRAM
Councilmember Teitzel referred to PWT-50, Walkway on 238th St. SW from Highway 99 to 76th Ave W,
which is on the CIP/CFP to begin in the 2030-2044 timeframe.
COUNCILMEMBER TEITZEL MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER BUCKSHNIS,
TO MOVE THE SCHEDULE UP FOR DESIGN TO BEGIN 2026 WITH CONSTRUCTION TO
BEGIN IN 2027. SECOND
Councilmember Teitzel relayed the estimated project cost is $1.4 million. It is scheduled for the 2030-
2044 timeframe, but ranked #10 in the long walkway priority list in the most recent transportation plan.
The Highway 99 Subarea is undergoing rapid redevelopment. This route is one of the primary walking
and biking routes for residents of southeast Edmonds to transit and amenities on SR 99. It is a major
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 14
walking and biking route to the soon to be improved Mathay Ballinger Park and will be a major walking
and biking route to the new Edmonds access to the Ballinger Park. It is a dangerous walking route with
insufficient or non-existent sidewalks currently and it needs to be reprioritized for design in 2026 and
construction in 2027.
COUNCIL PRESIDENT PRO TEM OLSON MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER
PAINE, MOVE TO AMEND TO MOVE THE PROJECT TO 2027 FOR DESIGN AND 2028 FOR
CONSTRUCTION.
Council President Pro Tem Olson explained projects are included in the first three years of the CIP/CFP if
they have designated funding sources. Knowing there is no funding source for that project at this time,
she recommended moving it into the unfunded portion of the plan with the understanding if a funding
source is identified, the CIP/CFP could be amended to move it up. City Engineer Rob English commented
that would be consistent with the practice of putting unfunded projects in the back 3 years of the
CIP/CFP.
UPON ROLL CALL, MOTION CARRIED (5-2) MAYOR PRO TEM TIBBOTT, COUNCIL
PRESIDENT PRO TEM OLSON, AND COUNCILMEMBERS BUCKSHNIS, PAINE AND NAND
VOTING YES; COUNCILMEMBERS TEITZEL AND CHEN VOTING NO.
Councilmember Buckshnis said she was confused by the process; the council already voted on
amendments in the packet that she and Councilmember Teitzel proposed. Mayor Pro Tem Tibbott advised
was this a new amendment to CIP/CFP, a motion was made by Councilmember Teitzel and amended by
Council President Pro Tem Olson and now the council will vote on the main motion as amended.
Councilmember Teitzel recalled discussions by Public Works Director Oscar Antillon and City Attorney
Jeff Taraday regarding the code related to sidewalks which states the property owner adjacent to the right-
of-way where sidewalk is installed may bear some of that cost. If the intent is for design in 2027, the
property owners need to be clear what the code requires. He suggested that be sussed out in the next three
years
Mayor Pro Tem Tibbott observed this is an important connector to the Interurban Trail as well as the
future light rail station. He asked if there were grant funding opportunities to complete that project sooner
rather than later. Mr. Antillon answered sidewalks are typically built by the developer during construction
and turned over to the property owner. The current code does not prevent the City from building
sidewalks, but they are not the City's responsibility. Staff will ensure projects comply with the code and
will continue to look for grants and other opportunities to fund this and other projects. The City does not
have a grants manager that does that but engineering staff, particularly Transportation Engineer Bertrand
Hauss, continuously search for opportunities.
Mr. English said the state's bike and pedestrian program as well as Safe Routes to School are potential
funding sources for this and other sidewalk projects. A new program, the Active Infrastructure Program,
is another potential funding source, but they have not done a call for projects yet. The challenge will be
how competitive that project or another sidewalk project in the City will be in a nationwide program.
MAIN MOTION AS AMENDED CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
Councilmember Buckshnis asked if the council would receive a summary of projects the council has
voted on or should councilmembers continue to propose amendments. Mayor Pro Tem Tibbott referred to
packet page 353 which is a list of public works and parks amendments and the action/change.
Councilmember Buckshnis observed the packet did not reflect her motion to remove the waterfront
walkway project. Councilmember Teitzel recalled the motion failed for lack of a second.
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 15
COUNCILMEMBER BUCKSHNIS MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER TEITZEL,
TO REJECT THE $500,000 COST IN PWP-02 TO COMPLETE AND CLOSE OUT ALL ITEMS
ASSOCIATED WITH THE CARBON RECOVERY PROJECT.
Councilmember Buckshnis explained this was supposed to be an all-inclusive project. The council has not
had an update for a long time other than it is now working. There have been issues with whoever is doing
the construction and it was supposed to be all-inclusive so she questioned why the City would bear
$500,000 more to close out the project. She asked if this should be discussed in executive session since it
was an all-inclusive contract. Mr. Antillon agreed it could be discussed in executive session. Mr. Taraday
suggested scheduling an executive session at a subsequent meeting to allow him to confer with staff to
ensure the topic was proper for an executive session.
COUNCILMEMBER BUCKSHNIS WITHDREW THE MOTION WITH THE AGREEMENT OF
THE SECOND.
Mayor Pro Tem Tibbott requested staff update the list of amendments. He expected the CIP/CFP would
be brought back to council at the next meeting for approval.
Councilmember Teitzel recalled during the council's last discussion regarding the CIP/CFP, funding
sources for Yost Park projects including R19 were moved around. He asked if council needed to make an
amendment or would staff restate the costs and resubmit them for council consideration. Parks,
Recreation & Human Services Director Angie Feser displayed the following which is a result of past
discussions/presentations:
• Parks CIP/CFP Amendments as of 11/8/2023
CW
Plille *
Project Site & Description
2024
2025
2026
2027
2028
2029
6-Year Total
Shell Creek Restoration �ARAYFORNIAR0.
Stream health and erosion control of shell Creek in Yost Park, scope TBD based
S 12", 1111
R39
on study. Study existing condition analysis in 2024. Design, permitting and
S 250,000
$ 380,000
$ -
5 -
S -
$ -
$ 630,000
construction work in 2025.
Ra
Yost Park & Pod
R4
Park enhancements, repair and maintenance to include
6,9
$ 1,296,400
$
5
$
$
S 1,296,400
R6
R31
playground and pool upgrades in 2025.
011ympic Beach Park
20;ew
R7
. Replacement of failed ventilation system in
$ 20,000
'
aa,ow
S -
$ -
$ -
S 53 000
coordination with roof replacement (by Facilities/PW)
S 33,000
Elm Street Park
D36
Park enhancements to include the addition of a nature playground,
D17
-
S -
S -
$ 100,000
$ 34G,370
R14
small shelter with picnic tables and habitat restoration, and consideration of a
dog park amenity with public design process.
Councilmember Teitzel asked if this was sufficient to document how the costs were moved rather than
revising R10, R9 and R4. Ms. Feser answered these change will be reflected in the CIP/CFP that will be
presented to council for adoption.
Mayor Pro Tem Tibbott declared a brief recess
2. COUNCIL BUDGET DISCUSSION
Mayor Pro Tem Tibbott suggested the following approach: councilmembers first focus on decision
packages in the proposed budget and at a future meeting, cover decision packages in outlying years and
new decision packages proposed by councilmembers.
Councilmember Teitzel referred to DP7, red light cameras.
COUNCILMEMBER TEITZEL MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER BUCKSHNIS,
TO DENY DECISION PACKAGE 7, RED LIGHT CAMERAS, AT THIS TIME AND
RECONSIDER IN 2024.
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 16
Councilmember Teitzel provided the following justification for his motion: installation of red light
cameras purportedly results in a reduction of accidents at busy intersections. However, supporting data
shows conflicting results in this regard. In fact, the Redond City Council recently voted to remove all red
light cameras that had previously been installed there because the safety benefits were not clear. More
research is needed to justify installation of red light cameras in Edmonds to clearly demonstrate the safety
benefits. In addition, this DP does not identify additional costs that will result from the addition of
personnel in EPD and the Court to process the citations and resultant appeals. Until that research and
quantification is completed, this DP should be denied. After all empirical evidence and quantification of
revenue and expenses can be quantified (including identification of additional EPD and Court FTEs
required to process the citations), this proposal should be reintroduced in 2024 for Council consideration.
Council President Pro Tern Olson commented the council got really good food for thought and some of
the items mentioned in the narrative for this decision package that were addressed in tonight's
presentation are not necessarily her concerns. There is more information for the council to vet and to give
more time and consideration to public safety concerns. However, it is not appropriate for the council to
include it as a decision for revenue in the short term and she agreed with Councilmember Teitzel's desire
to consider it outside that process next year.
Councilmember Paine argued against this amendment to remove DP7. Red light cameras and school zone
cameras offer a lot of public safety. The council has heard from over a dozen neighborhood that traffic
safety is a neighborhood need right now and red light cameras offer immediate results for those
neighborhoods.
Mayor Pro Tern Tibbott expressed appreciation for the amount of information the police department
provided tonight. It raised a number of questions in his mind that still have not been answered so it is
difficult for him to support moving forward with the red light cameras at this time. However, it peaked his
interest and he was interested in pursuing it in 2024 when the council has time for more deliberation on
the topic.
In response to Councilmember Paine's comment, Councilmember Teitzel advised the motion had nothing
to do with school zone cameras and those should proceed. This decision package pertained only to red
light cameras.
Councilmember Chen relayed the police department's presentation indicated the motive is public safety.
The council has received many complaints from residents about driving behavior including running red
lights and he has witnessed many near misses in front of his office on 76t1i & 224' at the one-way stop
sign that was replaced with a flashing red light that drivers continue to run. This is a public safety
improvement approach. He was skeptical three intersections will generate $3.5 million in revenue, but in
principle, he can accept that it is related to safety concerns.
Councilmember Paine reiterated over a dozen neighborhoods have expressed concern. Red light cameras
would release police from the responsibility for traffic enforcement at intersections and allow them to do
traffic enforcement in the more than a dozen neighborhoods the council has heard from. She urged
councilmembers not to support the amendment.
Councilmember Buckshnis asked if Mayor Pro Tern Tibbott was allowing only two comments per
councilmember. Mayor Pro Tern Tibbott answered that sounded like a good idea. Councilmember
Buckshnis said Roberts Rules allows two comments per councilmember, but does not restrict questions.
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 17
Councilmember Buckshnis expressed her total support for this amendment. As she has stated previously,
this is policy driven issue and should start with the council, have a slow roll out with a public hearing at
the planning board, and a complete process.
Councilmember Nand expressed support for the amendment, commenting it would be quite significant if
the City began issuing 29,700 tickets/year through red light cameras which, according to her calculation,
would be required to reach $3.5 million in revenue. She found it bizarre at a time the City is facing a
budget crisis to consider adding FTEs to serve this program when there are vital services that needed to be
funded and the council may have to contemplate eliminate positions in 2024 and beyond. She summarized
red light cameras would be the wrong move for the City at this time.
MOTION CARRIED (5-2), COUNCILMEMBERS CHEN AND PAINE VOTING NO.
Councilmember Teitzel referred to DP8, grant specialist, relaying he is very torn on this position because
he sees a very clear benefit. However, there are very unusual circumstance related to the budget and
strong actions will be required to get it under control.
COUNCILMEMBER TEITZEL MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER BUCKSHNIS,
TO DENY DECISION PACKAGE 8 FOR THE GRANT SPECIALIST, BUT RECONSIDER IT
NEXT YEAR ESPECIALLY IF FEDERAL GRANT MONEY BECOMES AVAILABLE FOR THIS
SORT OF WORK.
Councilmember Teitzel provided the following justification for his motion: This FTE is purported to be
able to bring in an incremental amount of grant funding that would more than offset the annual cost of the
position (benefits and salaries). While this position is worthy of consideration, this DP should be denied
at this time. The city's financial condition is currently uncertain, and adding an FTE adds significant
expenditure with an uncertain return. This request should be reevaluated in mid-2024 and brought
forward as a mid -year budget amendment for consideration after the city's actual 2024 financial condition
becomes more clear.
Council President Pro Tem Olson expressed support for the motion, noting she has ruminated about this a
lot. She was open to a short term contract because infrastructure money and the Inflation Reduction Act
money is available now, there are a lot of requirements and possibly a specialist could get the City more
of that money. However, for the City to take on a reoccurring and forever FTE, according to what she has
read, there won't be as grants available once those pots are depleted. Staff will also continue to look for
grants. She preferred a professional services approach where someone looks for grants for the City
although she noted some of the departments' professional services budget may be reduced via the budget
process. She expressed support for eliminating the FTE in the budget, anticipating the need will decrease
in future years as funds are no longer available.
Councilmember Paine argued against eliminating this position. What some may not understand is grants
include administrative fees to support a grant writer. For example, a $200,000 grant would help support
the $120,000 salary for a grants manager as well as the position's overhead, 10% is a common amount.
Eliminating this position is shortsighted as it is a way to have projects developed and moved forward in
ways that serve the City. She did not understand the proposal to eliminate this position other than putting
the City into a situation that was very shortsighted. Nonprofits and other cities have grant managers. She
feared not having a grants manager would result in City projects not moving forward.
Councilmember Buckshnis expressed support for the motion. She has read over 250 grants over the last 8
years and assured a grant writer is as important as the people they work with to get sufficient information.
She is a fiscal conservative and did not believe this was short sighted. Eliminating this position is being
smart, and the most important thing is for the new administration and new councilmembers to have a
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 18
good relationship with federal legislators, recalling how much money former Mayor Earling got for the
connector and the $50 million that U.S. Representative Derrick Kilmer got for coastal communities,
communities that did not have grant specialists. Few cities have grant specialists and she agreed with
Council President Pro Tem Olson about having a part-time grant manager. She recalled the City had a
part-time grant writer in the past, but she did not have enough work. The City's financial condition is not
good and the City should not be spending $183,000 to fund someone who it is unknown if they will be
capable of obtaining grants.
Council President Pro Tern Olson expressed appreciation for the comment regarding administrative fees
to offset the cost of a grants manager, noting those funds could also be used to offset a professional
services contract for a grants specialist that the City might use short term.
COUNCILMEMBER NAND MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER PAINE, TO TABLE
IN HOPES DIRECTOR TATUM COULD COME BACK AND DISCUSS SOME OTHER
OPTIONS TO TRY TO PRESERVE THIS IN THE BUDGET AT LESS OF A FINANCIAL
IMPACT. MOTION FAILED (2-5), COUNCILMEMBERS PAINE AND NAND VOTING YES.
Councilmember Teitzel commented the City is having success achieving grants including one for the Mee
property that will double the size of Mathay Ballinger. In addition, Edmonds has a very highly educated
and engaged populus, many with expertise in grant writing who he was certain would be happy to help
the City. He was hopeful that valuable resource could be tapped in the new year at least until it is
determined if there will be federal grant money available to fund this position. He recommended
reevaluating the position midyear 2024.
Councilmember Chen expressed support for the amendment; the City is in a fiscal emergency and needs
to be careful about adding full-time positions. In the future, once the financial situation is stable, the
council can revisit the need and reevaluate adding this position. As Councilmember Teitzel said, the
City`s professional staff has been successful in obtaining grants including for the Mee property, Highway
99 revitalization, and others. In the short term he urged caution about adding additional paid staff.
COUNCILMEMBER NAND MOVED TO AMEND TO CONVERT DECISION PACKAGE 8
INTO A $100,000 ALLOCATION FOR THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT'S
PROFESSIONAL SERVICES BUDGET TO RETAIN A GRANT SPECIALIST AS A
CONSULTANT FOR ONE YEAR TO SEE HOW MUCH ON A TRIAL BASIS THIS PERSON
COULD GENERATE FOR THE CITY. MOTION FAILED FOR LACK OF A SECOND.
Councilmember Paine argued against removing this decision package. There are projects in the CIP/CFP
that need grant funding. Delaying hiring the position for six months is also short sighted; if the position is
needed, it should be funded and put in place now. With regard to decision package 7 and 8, she said "if
the community needs it and we're adding this to the CIP/CFP, then we should be asking for ways to add
revenue and not to shortcut the City and community for things that are actual needs."
MOTION CARRIED (5-2), COUNCILMEMBERS PAINE AND NAND VOTING NO.
Councilmember Teitzel referred to decision package 14, climate action manager, commenting he was
very torn as he would love to approve and support this position, but the 2024 budget is in a unique
situation and the council needs to be extraordinary about careful about adding FTEs.
COUNCILMEMBER TEITZEL MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER BUCKSHNIS,
TO DENY THE CLIMATE ACTON PLAN MANAGER AT THIS TIME.
Councilmember Teitzel provided the following justification for his motion: This FTE is intended to
coordinate specific actions to advance the goals of the Climate Action Plan to ensure those goals are met.
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 19
While this is a worthy proposal, the city's financial condition does not support addition of a new FTE for
this purpose at this time at an annual cost of $145,000. This request should be denied. However, this item
should be reintroduced in mid-2024 after the city's actual financial condition can be reassessed and
reconsidered for approval at that time.
Councilmember Teitzel commented there were things the City can do soon without a CAP manager. For
example, there have been discussions about the effects of greenhouse gases (GHG) on the environment
and restricting the use of natural gas appliances. The council could suggest, without an CAP manager, a
code amendment to restrict gas furnaces, hot water heaters, etc. in homes which would have a measurable
and meaningful impact on the climate.
Councilmember Buckshnis expressed support for the motion due to the workaround in June/July 2024
when Commerce will have a $500,000 grant that all the City has to do is apply for. Some of those funds
could be used to fund this position or to fund a contract; that is a decision next year's council would
make. There are other things that could be done such as Taming Bigfoot which assisted many residents in
learning how to reduce their GHG. The mayor's climate protection committee could also address some of
the educational aspects. The current mayor did not allow a presentation regarding Taming Bigfoot. An
effort like Taming Bigfoot could be proposed along with code amendments. The proposed cost for a
climate action manager is $150,000, money the City just doesn't have right now.
Councilmember Paine said she is really disappointed to see this motion come forward. There are funds in
the budget and she will present a funding source for this position. Eliminating this position is short-
sighted due to the climate crisis. She referred to articles in the Seattle Times, New York Times,
Washington Post, etc. This position is not related to what the City needs to do internally, but providing
outreach to the community and getting started now. Taming Bigfoot had nothing to do with taming GHG.
She requested councilmembers who care about the environment support keeping this potion in the budget.
If councilmembers are worried about the $153,000 cost, she knows where to find it in the budget and will
make that proposal later.
Council President Pro Tem Olson said she was super proud of the council and their environmental stance
and environmental action during the four years she has been on council. She applauded their efforts and
consistency in supporting environmental action. This is the first time there has been vote on that subject
where she contemplated a no vote. She was confident in her vote, and thanked Councilmember Buckshnis
for bringing up the Commerce grant, relaying her exciting about that funding source and how those funds
can best be used. She was very hopeful the new administration will find ways to focus on climate action
with the existing staff because council is literally weighing whether to add a new FTE or retain existing
FTEs. She reluctantly supports this motion and knows it is the right decision now, but when the
Commerce grant is available, the position can be added next year if that is determined to be the best path.
Councilmember Nand thanked the community for bringing this idea forward and for their incredible
passion and engagement. She was hopeful when the City gets the climate action money from the
Department of Commerce that this position will be fully funded. She will continue promoting her
somewhat controversial proposal to share the position with neighboring jurisdictions who do not fund this
type of education and outreach in their communities to expand the reach of this behavior -altering position
and multiple the impacts. She thanked the community for their engagement and looked forward to making
progress this year or next. In the meantime there is plenty that can be done to reduce carbon footprint.
She pointed out Taming Bigfoot was entirely about reducing one's carbon footprint. She was part of the
mayor's climate protection committee at that time. With regard to commentary about the 2010 CAP, staff
and consultants presented to the mayor's climate protection committee and the council which was done
with funding the council devoted toward implementing the CAP. She assured the CAP was a high priority
for the City.
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 20
Councilmember Chen commented the reality is the City is in fiscal crisis and short of money, but climate
change is real as evidenced by severe temperatures fluctuations in the summer and winter. He looked
forward to Councilmember Paine's idea for funding and proposed tabling the motion until a funding
source can be identified.
COUNCILMEMBER CHEN MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER PAINE, TO TABLE.
UPON ROLL CALL, MOTION FAILED (3-4), COUNCILMEMBERS CHEN, PAINE AND NAND
VOTING YES; MAYOR PRO TEM TIBBOTT, COUNCIL PRESIDENT PRO TEM OLSON, AND
COUNCILMEMBERS TEITZEL AND BUCKSHNIS VOTING NO.
Councilmember Teitzel said he was offended by any implication he was not fully supportive of the CAP.
He is supportive of the CAP and gave a very tangible, meaningful example of something the City can do
without a climate action manager to have a meaningful impact on GHG emissions. There are many other
things the City can while waiting to see what happens with Commerce grant money that will be available
next year to fund such a position. If that money is available, the council should reconsider the position at
that time. In the meantime, there are things the City can do without affecting and stressing the already
stressed budget. He hoped no one misunderstands, he is a strong supporter of environmental improvement
actions and those who know him would agree.
Councilmember Buckshnis echoed Councilmember Teitzel's comment, advising she, Councilmember
Teitzel and the late Councilmember Kristinia Johnson were on the interfaith climate action group and the
mayor's protection committee and spent six months on Taming Bigfoot which provides good ways for
citizens to reduce their GHG. Another thing the mayor's climate protection committee could work on in
the meantime was the CAP is GHG centric and adaptative measures need to be added to the plan.
Councilmember Paine raised a point of order, requesting Councilmember Buckshnis stay on topic.
Councilmember Buckshnis assured she was on topic. Mayor Pro Tern Tibbott ruled point not taken.
Councilmember Buckshnis concluded there were things that could be done until the Commerce grant
becomes available.
MOTION CARRIED (5-2), COUNCILMEMBERS PAINE AND NAND VOTING NO.
Councilmember Teitzel referred to decision package 18, security and safety system changes, which he
hoped would be less controversial.
COUNCILMEMBER TEITZEL MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER BUCKSHNIS,
TO DENY DECISION PACKAGE 18 AT THIS TIME.
Councilmember Teitzel provided the following justification for his motion: This decision package
proposes to upgrade security systems in city facilities and structures. However, the narrative does not
suggest the current security systems are wholly inadequate. In view of the serious fiscal issues now facing
the City, this decision package should be denied at this time. This item should be reintroduced in the 2025
budget cycle for Council consideration, after the 2024 City financial actuals reveal whether the city
budget can absorb this expense.
Councilmember Buckshnis said this was an amendment she also planned to propose. It will be important
to make the future council aware of this as security and safety are important. As she read the decision
package, she couldn't tell if the City has a problem other than the need to upgrade. She supported
eliminating this from the budget and if the future council finds it's necessary, they can do a budget
amendment. She concluded the narrative did not support a cost of $125,000.
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November 14, 2023
Page 21
Council President Pro Tern Olson asked about the deferred maintenance bond and not putting that into the
General Fund. If this is prioritized as deferred maintenance, potentially it could be funded by the bond for
deferred maintenance. Public Works Director Oscar Antillon answered upgrading systems may be an
issue related to the backlog of maintenance. It could include fire panel upgrades along with security
upgrades and the funding source could be the bond money. He would need to check on that. Council
President Pro Tern Olson suggested if the council approved removing this decision package, it could be
addressed via a budget amendment in the first quarter with a different funding source. Mr. Antillon
agreed.
Councilmember Paine said she did not see why the council would not support this decision package. It
makes sense to have electronic monitoring in all facilities. She was surprised to hear a motion to remove
it from the budget and did not support the motion and urged councilmember not to support it.
Councilmember Nand asked if staff was given more time, such as a week, could they come back with a
presentation regarding what the $125,000 funds in regard to equipment upgrades. Mr. Antillon answered
yes.
COUNCILMEMBER NAND MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER CHEN, TO TABLE
TO ALLOW DIRECTOR ANTILLON TIME TO BRING MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE
INTENDED USES FOR THIS $125,000. MOTION CARRIED (5-2), COUNCILMEMBERS
TEITZEL AND BUCKSHNIS VOTING NO.
Councilmember Teitzel raised a point of order regarding the last motion, asking whether a motion to table
was appropriate or should it have been to postpone. Mr. Taraday responded the motions are different but
similar. Under Roberts Rules, a motion to table requires it be taken from the table either at this meeting or
the next meeting. However, also under Roberts Rules, each council meeting is a new session, the effect of
the motion to table only lasts for this meeting and the next and then it can renewed by any
councilmember. Mayor Pro Tern Tibbott pointed out the council will be deliberating on the budget and
decision packages at the next meeting. If staff has that material available, it could be considered at the
next meeting.
Councilmember Teitzel referred to decision package 61, vehicle replacements, relaying although this
doesn't directly affect the General Fund, it affects the budget. These are unusual times where the budget
is extremely stressed for many reasons.
COUNCILMEMBER TEITZEL MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCIL PRESIDENT PRO TEM
OLSON, THAT THE VEHICLES PROPOSED FOR REPLACEMENT IN 2024 IN DECISION
PACKAGE 61 BE DENIED.
Councilmember Teitzel provided the following justification for his motion: This decision package
proposes to replace eight City of Edmonds vehicles (six police and two public works) per the standard
replacement schedule. However, the city's financial situation is currently significantly stressed across all
funds, and these vehicle replacements should be deferred until the 2025 budget cycle. This decision
package should be denied at this time.
Council President Pro Tern Olson observed Councilmember Teitzel has proposed this nearly every year
he has been on council. If there was ever a time to test this and see what the impact is, this might be the
year. She suggested the council be willing to try it and evaluate in the aftermath whether it was a good or
bad idea so the council knows for future years.
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 22
Councilmember Buckshnis recalled in 2010 $300,000 was transferred from the from 511B Fund into the
General Fund. She acknowledged that wasn't something that should be done, but supported holding off
on vehicle purchases, especially since there are three 2016 Harleys so some of those could last one more
year. She expressed support for the motion.
Councilmember Chen asked the condition of the two public works vehicles proposed to be replaced. Mr.
Antillon answered they are at the end of their useful life. Councilmember Chen asked the number of years
in their useful life. Mr. Antillon answered 10-15 years depending on the vehicle; the useful life for police
vehicles is a lot shorter. Councilmember Chen asked if the public works vehicles were currently
functioning well. Mr. Antillon answered they are operating, but require more work to maintain.
Councilmember Chen observed the issue was vehicle maintenance. Given the current budget situation, he
will support stretching the vehicle life for another year. Mr. Antillon said the likelihood that the cost will
be incurred next year is pretty small due to the manufacturer's backlog; not all the 2022 orders have been
fulfilled. The longer the replacement is delayed, the longer it will take to get the vehicles. The
manufactures are struggling to fill government orders and sometimes cancel orders. He agreed with
Councilmember Buckshnis that it is not a good practice to move money from the B Fund, departments
pay into the B Fund to pay for vehicle replacements so it is difficult to justify not replacing the vehicles.
Councilmember Chen asked if there were sufficient funds in the B Fund to replace those vehicles. Mr.
Antillon answered there are, that fund is supported by contributions from each department, it is not
General Fund money. Councilmember Chen asked if Mr. Antillon's opinion was to replace vehicle as
scheduled rather than delay their replacement. Mr. Antillon answered yes, to ensure the City gets good
rates to replace vehicles. Councilmember Chen commented the City is in a budget crisis so he will
support the motion as a short term solution to help the General Fund.
Councilmember Paine emphasized this is not a General Fund supported purchase and not a transfer into
the General Fund. It is an internal transfer done annually to support vehicle replacements and does not
affect the General Fund.
Councilmember Nand observed the two public works vehicles are quire old, 2008 models. She asked the
purpose of those vehicles and the purpose of the requested replacement vehicles. Mr. Antillon said he did
not have the decision package in front of him and would have to look into it. Councilmember Nand
opposed the amendment, recalling a mechanic was funded via a mid -year budget amendment due to the
aging fleet. These vehicles are needed to provide vital services, to keep streets clean, safe and accessible
especially during extreme weather events. She encouraged councilmembers to at least fund the
replacement of the 2008 public works vehicles.
Councilmember Nand continued, the police department is understaffed and their vehicles face a lot of
usage and are also providing vital public services. She did not want public works employees or patrol
officers to be endangered or unable to fulfill their vital public function because their vehicle requires
excessive service due to its age or is unable to function in the fleet. She opposed the motion. As
previously stated, this is not funded from the General Fund, but from a fund dedicated to replacement of
vehicles at the end of the vehicles' life expectancy.
Council President Pro Tem Olson pointed out the mechanic was added due to growth of the fleet, not
aging fleet issues. She referred to Mr. Antillon's comment that the City is still waiting on orders placed in
2022. She took that to mean that cars end up being in operation longer than intended due to the year delay
to get replacement vehicles. Mr. Antillon agreed, commenting that is having an impact, especially for the
police department. The decision package includes six police vehicles; if one of the police department's
vehicles is down, it has a big impact. Council President Pro Tem Olson said in light of that, she will
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 23
reconsider her position as the City is actually getting an extra year of service from vehicles while waiting
for their replacement. She will wait for her experiment for another year.
Mayor Pro Tern Tibbott did not support the motion because vehicle replacement is funded from a
different source than the General Fund. He supports maintaining vehicles for safety and functionality of
the departments and felt it was vital to replace vehicles on a schedule.
UPON ROLL CALL, MOTION FAILED (3-4), COUNCILMEMBERS TEITZEL, CHEN AND
BUCKSHNIS VOTING YES; MAYOR PRO TEM TIBBOTT, COUNCIL PRESIDENT PRO TEM
OLSON AND COUNCILMEMBERS PAINE AND NAND VOTING NO.
Councilmember Teitzel referred to decision package 64, capital maintenance projects, advising this is a
fairly small request, but the City's budget is in extraordinary times and the council is looking for
opportunities to trim expenses from the 2024 budget that are not absolutely critical.
COUNCILMEMBER TEITZEL MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER BUCKSHNIS,
TO DENY DECISION PACKAGE 64.
Councilmember Teitzel Proposes provided the following justification for his motion: This item proposes
$65,000 in funding to replace an existing manual gate system with a motorized gate and access controls.
This would make public works maintenance yard ingress and egress more efficient. This is a reasonable
request. However, in view of the city's current fiscal instability, every effort must be made to reduce
expenditures. This request should be denied at this time, and reconsidered for implementation in 2025.
Councilmember Nand asked if Councilmember Teitzel was proposing to remove $65,000 for the gate or
deny the entire decision package. Councilmember Teitzel explained the decision package is $65,000 to
replace the existing manual gate system with an electronic sliding gate. Councilmember Nand asked if the
intent was to leave the $80,000 in the decision package for the office and IT room heat pump installation.
Councilmember Teitzel answered his amendment is related only to $65,000 for the electronic gate.
MOTION CARRIED (5-2), COUNCILMEMBERS PAINE AND NAND VOTING NO.
Councilmember Teitzel referred to decision package 83, waterfront emergency study.
COUNCILMEMBER TEITZEL MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER BUCKSHNIS,
TO DENY THE REQUEST FOR $50,000 IN 2024.
Councilmember Teitzel provided the following justification for his motion: This item proposes $50,000
for a restudy of Edmonds waterfront emergency response options to enhance response to fires, disasters
and medical emergencies on the Edmonds waterfront. It appears this funding is to underwrite consultant
expenses for this study. Instead, this effort should be assigned to a task force for further study consisting
of the City, the Port, citizens, BNSF, etc. to identify creative solutions for this need.
Councilmember Buckshnis said she also had this amendment on her radar. She anticipates taskforces will
be common next year as the City thinks of creative ways to do things. Waterfront emergency response
options were studied previously by a committee that included then-Councilmember Mike Nelson. She
recalled the committee studied 45 different options and suggested pulling that information off the shelf
and considering next year whether further study is needed..
Councilmember Chen expressed support for the amendment, agreeing this $50,000 study was not a good
use of City funds. The previous administration generated extensive study materials and he suggested
working closely with the Port to find solutions.
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 24
Councilmember Nand spoke in favor of the motion, recalling a question regarding what the fire
department would do if a scenario occurred where trains blocked the tracks and Fire Chief Thad Hovis
said he had already talked to Police Chief Bennett and their solution would be to try to get life sustaining
equipment through gaps in the train cars to stabilize the person until they could be evacuated. This is
something emergency services is already trying to solve and the City did not need to devote $50,000 to it.
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
Councilmember Teitzel referred to decision package 87, land acquisition support, $50,000 in additional
funding to support a real estate professional to help the City find additional park and green space.
COUNCILMEMBER TEITZEL MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER BUCKSHNIS,
TO DENY DECISION PACKAGE 87.
Councilmember Teitzel provided the following justification for his motion: This decision package
proposes incremental $50,000 in funding to support real estate professional consulting services to assist
the city in seeking additional open space acquisition for green space/parks. This request should be denied
at this time. In view of the city's current fiscal instability, every effort must be made to reduce ongoing
expenditures. In view of the total number of properties that have been identified over the past 12 months
for potential acquisition, it is not apparent this investment is providing adequate ROI for the city. Further,
the funding source for this position is REET 1. The savings associated with denial of this request can be
reallocated to other critical Parks needs.
Councilmember Teitzel relayed his understanding this is primarily for the Longbay consultant who has
been helpful in providing insights and leads on property. He understood part of this investment would
support Longbay's work on the Landmark property which is very much in question with regard to
whether it will proceed, a decision that will be made in the next month. He did not think it was
appropriate to expand the funding for Longbay in 2024.
Councilmember Paine asked Parks, Recreation & Human Services Director Angie Feser how she
anticipated the funds would be used in the coming year. Ms. Feser clarified the $50,000 request in parks
capital is spending authority, not an amendment to the existing contract with Longbay Enterprises. If the
council does not want $50,000 to be allocated to Longbay, when that budget amendment comes forward,
it can be denied. This is spending authority to support activities related to land acquisition for parks. For
example, if the City is approached by an individual about making a land donation for park property, funds
are needed to do the necessary work. If staff wants to apply for an RCO grant for land acquisition, there
are requirements for appraisals and appraisal review. This $50,000 in spending authority would be a
source for that service. This is not money earmarked for the Landmark 99 property; there is a separate
contract with Longbay Enterprises for work related to Landmark 99. The contract with Longbay
Enterprises has reached its capacity and to continue using Longbay, an amendment is necessary which
was denied by the PPW committee last month and staff can no longer use Longbay Enterprises' services
at this time. This allocation would be for City resources to pursue park land acquisition in 2024.
Councilmember Paine said she did not support the amendment and wanted the funds maintained in the
land acquisition category so there will be some flexibility when opportunities arise.
Councilmember Buckshnis asked if the contract with Longbay has reached $150,000. Ms. Feser answered
there is approximately $2,000 left of the $150,000 allocation. Councilmember Buckshnis asked if
Longbay was working on the Landmark property. Ms. Feser answered the economic development
department has a smaller contract with Longbay to work on Landmark 99. Councilmember Buckshnis
Edmonds City Council Approved Minutes
November 14, 2023
Page 25
asked if Director Tatum used his $50,000 contractual limit to single source the contract with Longbay.
Ms. Feser said Mr. Tatum could answer that, but that was her general understanding.
Councilmember Buckshnis said many commercial real estate people have asked her why Longbay was
utilized. She recalled it began as a single source which was within Ms. Feser's $50,000 limit. She
expressed concern with the contract morphing into something should have been a competitive process.
She knows a lot about this company and did not think the council should support or promote a single
source contract that is now up to almost $200,000 with no RFP. She will not support this funding
allocation and recommended future councils look closely at utilizing real estate consultants when there
are many commercial real estate people who will do appraisals and market research for free.
Council President Pro Tem Olson wanted to ensure the council understood what this item entailed; it is
just the authority to look at things, but it is also a budget item with money attached. Ms. Feser agreed,
explaining if the council approved the $50,000 decision package, it authorized staff to spend up to
$50,000 on activities and professional services related to potential park land acquisition.
Council President Pro Tem Olson commenting going into this budget process and thinking about the
City's financial situation and what the council can and cannot do fiscally and what the priorities are for
the limited funds in the budget and no operating reserves to fall back on for budget amendments, she
isolated one area of south Edmonds west of Highway 99 as the worst, most barren area in terms of park
coverage.
COUNCIL PRESIDENT PRO TEM OLSON MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER
TEITZEL, TO EXTEND FOR HALF AN HOUR.
Councilmember Buckshnis raised a point of order, asking if the meeting could be extended once the time
of adjournment had been reached/exceeded. Mayor Pro Tem Tibbott said he brought the issue up at 9 p.m.
City Attorney Jeff Taraday said he was not concerned about 30 seconds past 9 p.m.
UPON ROLL CALL, MOTION CARRIED (5-2), COUNCILMEMBERS TEITZEL, CHEN,
BUCKSHNIS AND NAND AND COUNCIL PRESIDENT PRO TEM OLSON VOTING YES;
MAYOR PRO TEM TIBBOTT AND COUNCILMEMBER PAINE VOTING NO.
Council President Pro Tem Olson continued, she would like council to consider limiting this to $10,000
and for only one area and not spend any time or effort looking for land in other areas because the City
doesn't have the money to proceed. However, the nature of real estate is the City sometimes only gets one
crack at a parcel. The park need is that desperate in that area that the City should not miss out on a chance
for park land there.
COUNCIL PRESIDENT PRO TEM OLSON MOVED, SECONDED COUNCILMEMBER
TEITZEL, TO AMEND TO CHANGE THE TOTAL TO $10,000 AND RESTRICT ITS USE ONLY
TO PROPERTY IN SOUTHEAST EDMONDS WEST OF HIGHWAY 99. UPON ROLL CALL,
MOTION FAILED (2-5), COUNCILMEMBER TEITZEL AND COUNCIL PRESIDENT PRO
TEM OLSON VOTING YES; COUNCILMEMBERS CHEN, BUCKSHNIS, PAINE AND NAND
AND MAYOR PRO TEM TIBBOTT VOTING NO.
Councilmember Chen said in light of the budget situation, he will support the motion. Some past
experiences with parkland acquisitions have been unsuccessful although the Mee property acquisition was
successful due to Ms. Feser's efforts and in that case, the property owner approached the City. If
opportunities arise in 2024, staff could propose a budget amendment for any funding that is needed. For
now, he will support removing this $50,000 decision package from the budget.
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November 14, 2023
Page 26
Councilmember Nand was opposed to removing $50,000 from the budget. Ms. Feser has explained how
Longbay is able to do contracting to ensure property is suitable without the City going through an arduous
RFP process. If parks does not have the ability to use real estate services such as Longbay, it becomes
much more administratively difficult for staff to move nimbly. Ms. Feser has had a lot of success in 2022
and 2023. This decision package is funded by REET and it is entirely appropriate to devote REET toward
acquiring additional park land for underserved areas of the community. As opportunities arise, she
preferred to allow Ms. Feser do her job nimbly and quickly. With the Mee property and stormwater
floodplain property on the south side of Lake Ballinger, Ms. Feser has been successful in finding grant
funds to better serve the community. Hamstringing Ms. Feser and not allowing her to continue to do this
important work would be shortsighted.
Mayor Pro Tem Tibbott did not support the motion as the request is for spending authority, not an actual
expense. He echoed he comments made by Councilmember Nand.
COUNCIL PRESIDENT PRO TEM OLSON MOVED TO AMEND THE DECISION PACKAGE
SO THE AUTHORITY ONLY APPLIES TO PROPERTIES BEING SOUGHT IN SOUTHEAST
EDMONDS WEST OF HIGHWAY 99 AND DONATED PROPERTIES THE CITY WANTS TO
VET. MOTION DIED FOR LACK OF A SECOND.
Councilmember Buckshnis clarified Longbay had nothing to do with the property that received a grant,
that grant was obtained by the wonderful staff in stormwater. Longbay is a single source contract; in the
past property owners have always approached the City and the City did not need to spend money, even
REET funds, to have a company identify property unless there an RFP was done. The Longbay contract is
up to almost $200,000.
Mayor Pro Tem Tibbott relayed his understanding that staff is not asking Longbay to search for
properties, this is spending authority to respond to opportunities, especially in the areas mentioned. Ms.
Feser clarified this is not requesting an amendment to Longbay's contract, expanding their services, or
giving them more money to do more work. It is simply asking for authority for up to $50,000 for work
around potential parkland acquisition or donation. Longbay Enterprise doing any additional work is an
entirely different subject that requires council approval. If staff feels that is important, it will be bought to
council and council can decide if Longbay should continue providing those services in that capacity. She
reminded council approved the contract with Longbay at $100,000 and has reviewed and approved it
twice. This is not a surprise or something new, it has been before council in the past. This decision
package does not expand that contract or award money to Longbay Enterprises, it is simply related to
doing due diligence around potential parkland acquisition.
UPON ROLL CALL, MOTION CARRIED (4-3), COUNCILMEMBERS TEITZEL, CHEN, AND
BUCKSHNIS AND COUNCIL PRESIDENT PRO TEM OLSON VOTING YES; MAYOR PRO
TEM TIBBOTT AND COUNCILMEMBERS PAINE AND NAND VOTING NO.
COUNCIL PRESIDENT PRO TEM OLSON MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER
BUCKSHNIS, TO REMOVE THE TRANSFER FROM CAPITAL DEFERRED MAINTENANCE
BOND FUNDS TO THE GENERAL FUND FROM DECISION PACKAGE 65 AND RETURN IT
TO ITS ORIGINAL PURPOSE, DEFERRED MAINTENANCE.
Council President Pro Tem Olson remembered being part of the conversation about the need to bond to
address the backlog of deferred maintenance projects. The case was aptly made that when repairs are put
off, the additional damage caused makes the project more costly than if the original repair had been done.
That is the situation the City is in with its deferred maintenance projects. She verified that the City has the
Job Order Contracts (JOC) and staff to do projects if these funds are not used for General Fund purposes
and actually used to for the intended purpose, to address deferred maintenance. She strongly urged
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November 14, 2023
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councilmembers to support taking that out of decision package 65 and returning it to Fund 016 to
accomplish deferred maintenance.
Councilmember Buckshnis expressed support for the motion. Approximately $1.2 million in delayed
maintenance projects were accomplished this year. Decision package 63 includes $660,000 in bond -
funded deferred maintenance projects. The bond was intended for deferred building maintenance and the
funds should be used for that purpose.
Councilmember Chen expressed support for the motion. Bonding was done for backlogged and
desperately needed deferred maintenance. The bond funds were borrowed and the City pays interest on
those funds so the funds needs to be used for specific purpose. Moving those funds to the General Fund
would be very costly and not a good financial move.
Mayor Pro Tern Tibbott spoke in favor of the motion although it was with some hesitancy. One way he
would support transferring the funds would be if there was a designated fund where deferred building
maintenance would be guaranteed at a fixed amount for the next years. However, that proposal has not
been made so he will support removing the transfer of funds from the decision package.
Councilmember Buckshnis advised she had not yet seen the memo, but the council's legislative assistant
contacted bond counsel who indicated there is a way around this which deals with arbitrage. She knew
banks have failed due to arbitrage although she recognized that the City could not fail. She was unsure it
was possible to transfer bond funds.
Councilmember Chen asked if the funds remain in Fund 016 for 2024, given the experience in 2023 when
the funds have not been used, does public works have the human resources to implement backlogged
maintenance projects. Mr. Antillon answered the department is getting better at delivering on projects
such as using JOC to do the work. Public works asked for additional project manager position to oversee
the projects. This year's condition assessment was just completed which shows the City's building are
falling behind; that information will be presented to council in the next month. Councilmember Chen said
that reaffirmed his decision to support this budget amendment.
Council President Pro Tern Olson restated the motion:
DECISION PACKAGE 65, STRIKE THE TRANSFER OF MONEY FROM 016 TO THE
GENERAL FUND SO $2 MILLION STAYS IN DEFERRED MAINTENANCE INSTEAD OF
BEING TRANSFERRED TO THE GENERAL FUND.
MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
Councilmember Buckshnis asked if the salaries recommended by the salary commission could be
postponed. Mr. Taraday answered no, the council cannot take any action related to the salary
commission's final determination of elected officials salaries.
Mayor Pro Tern Tibbott advised a special council meeting will be held on Monday, November 20, 4:30-
6:30 p.m. to consider budget adjustments proposed by staff. Any remaining time will be devoted to
budget amendments. The regularly scheduled council meeting will also be held on Tuesday, November
22.
11. ADJOURN
With no further business, the Council meeting was adjourned at 9:23 p.m.
6-
SCOTT PASSEY; CLERK
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November 14, 2023
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