09/24/1985 City CouncilThe following minutes were prepared from a tape of a short meeting of the Edmonds
City Council before the regular Committee meetings. Attendance was
not taken and minutes were not recorded by an official minute taker.
* COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES
DISCUSSION/DECISION ON CLASSIFICATION STUDY
September 24, 1985
Work Meeting
* Councilmember Hall explained the format of the meeting, stating that this would be
a discussion on a classification study for City employees and that Pat LeMay would
be addressing the group and introducing a consultant who could be questioned
regarding the proposal.
Personnel Manager Pat LeMay pointed out that in paragraph 1 of the Agenda memo the
word "reclassification" should read "reorganization". He then introduced Larry.
Daniels who would be answering questions on the classification study. Mr. Daniels
is a consultant with M & R Benfo, formerly with Donworth Taylor. .
Mr. LeMay explained that the memo states the reasons for the purposes for the
recommendation that there be a classification study conducted by an outside consult-
ant. The memo also indicates the steps involved with the classification study and
further states the scope of that study. Specifically, that all classifications
would be covered except Police and Fire classifications. Furthermore, the scope
would be such that the study would only involve an internal analysis and would not
involve a survey involving external labor market data. The memo points out to the
Council the estimated cost of such a study, estimated to be $12,000 to $15,000.
The memo further mentions that other cities have used outside consultants in their
classification studies and last week several other cities were surveyed to determine
how their studies were conducted. Mr LeMay distributed the results of that survey
for the Council's information. He went on to say that the Council is being asked
to authorize the classification study by an outside consultant, yet to be selected.
Councilmember Jaech mentioned that the Administrative Services Committee met over
breakfast, along with Council President John Nordquist, and discussed this item in
great length. The consultant (same as the one here tonight) gave them some back-
ground information to see what could be done. The internal study came about from
comments by the Council in the past year or two that they want to see internally
what had been done with the existing structure and to make sure that it was set up
properly.
Councilmember Kasper stated that they also wanted to look at the factors involved
in how those jobs are put together and whether the work has changed and what the
new job factors may be. He emphasized primarily that this could be an internal
analysis, but by an external analyst.
Councilmember Dwyer asked if this could not be done in-house?
Councilmember Kasper stated that his original recommendation was to get someone to
work with the staff from the exterior so that they could work together on this.
Pat LeMay wished to respond to Councilmember Dwyer's question. Pat LeMay stated
that he could conduct the study and he did conduct this study back in 1983 and he
felt it was a valid study. But the new reorganization has changed the content of
* See October 3, 1985 Minutes. -1-
jobs. He feels very strongly that an outside consultant would not only be a
lightening rod and take the heat for the recommendations once the recommendations
are implemented, but any consultant would also be perceived by the employees as
being more objective and neutral. The perception is very important in terms of
getting the employees to accept the recommendations of the study. That is why most
cities use an outside consultant, as indicated by the survey.
In answer to a question by Councilmember Dwyer, Mr. LeMay stated that that there
really isn't any choice on the part of the employee if there are reclassifications
of their positions, but he thinks the Council and the Mayor share the perception
that it would be nice if it were perceived as being professionally done by an out-
side outside consultant who has done these kinds of studies in the past. The
acceptance level would be higher and that means something in terms of morale.
Councilmember Hall commented that Councilmembers Kasper and Jaech were in on the
meeting and understood that Councilmember Kasper had inquired that when the reclass-
ification was done they would look at external factors, yet the memo indicates that
it would not involve external labor market data. She observed that Councilmember
Kasper keeps saying he would like to compare us with the county and private sector.
Councilmember Kasper stated that when Mr. LeMay was hired the Council wanted an
internal job evaluation but the Mayor changed that and what they were delivered was
an external analysis as far as he was concerned. He felt they had never had a com-
pletely isolated internal analysis.
Pat LeMay explained that it was both internal and external. Councilmember Kasper
replied that this isn't what was requested.
Councilmember Jaech understood Councilmember Kasper to say he would like to see the
relationships between one job and the other jobs around it and whether the jobs are
currently classified properly.
Councilmember Kasper expressed that he isn't necessarily interested in the pay
scale, but that he's interested in the job classification itself and reorganizing
all the jobs in the City so that it will all be done right. Mr. LeMay clarified
that the civilians of the Fire and Police Departments would be part of the study.
Councilmember Ostrom commented that Mr. LeMay did not seem to be thinking on the
same line as the Mayor on this subject. The Mayor had stated in his memo "How com-
prehensive can a study be without including uniformed personnel?"
Pat LeMay stated that he agreed with the Mayor, that the study should be comprehen-
sive. The problem that the Council has is that the uniformed Police and Fire
classifications have recourse interest arbitration and therefore the City has less
leverage and control. A comprehensive study might cost a little more, but then you
have recommendations and you can try to negotiate short of arbitration any adjust-
ments of those classifications.
Councilmember Kasper had no problem with including the uniformed Police and Fire,
but noted that the Union contracts are already in place for the next three years.
Councilmember Ostrom stated that there are other people on Union contracts that are
working for the City who are included.
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Councilmember Kasper asked where the idea came from to exclude the uniformed Fire
and Police.
Pat LeMay replied that the memo states this because at the breakfast meeting the
conclusion was reached to take out the Police and Fire that are in the bargaining
unit because they have recourse interest arbitration.
The consultant, Larry Daniels, stated getting an outsider to do it would focus more
on the jobs as the outsider would not know the personalities or the politics or the
individuals. He thinks the employees themselves would feel more comfortable with
using an outsider. Performance isn't judged at this stage, only the job contents
itself.
Councilmember Hall asked Larry Daniels if he had been involved in a study such as
this where certain portions of the City are omitted. She feels all City personnel
should be involved in this study. She said they were at this stage a year ago and
she thought the job would be done by now, but because it isn't she feels as though
a deadline has been set on the Councilmembers which she isn't sure they can meet.
She asked what the hurry is.
Councilmember Kasper said it was agreed not to override the deals of the last
recommendation by the Mayor on the basis it would be restudied and reanalyzed and
brought to the Council prior to November I.
Councilmember Jaech commented that part of the reason was that there are some
contracts that will soon be going into negotiation.
Councilmember Hall asked Larry Daniels if they should include Police and Fire.
Larry Daniels stated that he has done studies in both the public and private sectors
certain jobs can be deleted. But if you are going to do the study you might as well
look at all the jobs at the same time to see how they compare. Maybe your hands are
tied and you can't do anything in certain positions but at least you have the know-
ledge of where the job should align. So he recommends all the positions be
included.
Councilmember Hall asked Larry Daniels if he had done this type of study for other
cities. She wanted to know if we would have the same categorical classifications
as other cities. Larry Daniels replied that they have a job evaluation system
which breaks the job down into factors. 'They look at the job as they exist in each
individual city. They cannot say how they compare with other cities or organiza-
tions, but they can determine how they compare internally. Every job is looked at
individually.
Councilmember Ostrom asked if it was part of the procedure to speak to the
employees. Larry Daniels replied that that is an option, but it is much more effi-
cient to use what exists such as job descriptions and factors as they are already
presented and if they are current that is a good basis to use rather than going
back and interviewing all the employees which would make the process more expensive.
Councilmember Jaech commented that they wanted the various division managers to go
over all the job descriptions that they have for their staff and review them to
make sure the descriptions are accurate, then they in turn would go over them with
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the various department heads and come to some sort of agreement on them. Those job
descriptions then would go on to the consultant for evaluation and structure within
the organization.
Councilmember Wilson asked Pat LeMay what kind of system was used the last time
that such a study was done. Pat LeMay replied that he had done an internal analysis
and used external labor market data. It was a nonquantitative ranking method of
job evaluation, just looking at the factors unlike what is being suggested by the
consultant which is a quantitative method known as a point factor system in which
you have degrees or weights given within the factors which you quantify how you are
evaluating and grading that job. He looked at the factors and supplemented with
external labor market data. Mr. LeMay wished to point out that there is a lot of
leg work and preparation that he and the staff will have to do as far as making
sure those job descriptions are accurate and it might involve some job auditing or
job analysis, to make sure that descriptions are accurate as far as duties and
factors, because if they are not accurate it doesn't matter what kind of outside
consultant you get. He will not be able to do the right job. He must have
accurate job descriptions. But that will take a couple weeks to get together for
any outside consultant.
Councilmember Hall asked if the.Council were to employ Larry Daniels as the
consultant would the price still be the same if Police and Fire were included.
Larry replied that the price was the same as he did not think there were that many
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Councilmember Wilson asked Pat LeMay if, when he had done -the study, he had coordin-
ated his work with Department Heads, doing the same investigation into the job
classifications. Pat LeMay replied that he asked all the department heads to update
the job descriptions and dsked thatthem now,to check because ofethecuracy of threorganizationetheretmaysbeisome
the employee. But he say
considerable updating to be done.
Councilmember Wilson asked Pat LeMay how much time it took him to come to his
ultimate conclusions. Pat replied that because it was both a technical and tedious
process going through the Mayor and the Council, he had started in October, 1982,
and he completed the study in May, 1983, and it was implemented on July 1, 1983.
Councilmember Wilson asked Pat if once the study was implemented had he felt
uncomfortable with the fact that he had to do it and had he taken a lot of heat
because of it. Pat replied that he hadn't taken a lot of heat, but through the
grapevine and in talking confidentially with some people he felt the acceptance
would have been greater if it had been an outside consultant. Because he was new
he was perceived as neutral, but after being on the job three years he is not sure
if he is still perceived as neutral and he feels this should be taken into consider-
ation. He commented that it is important to get some level of acceptance not only
from the Council but from the employees, even though you are evaluating jobs and
not employees, because the incumbents will be affected in those jobs. Councilmember
Wilson commented that it can be said that the Management Team is there as the
Management Team to take some heat, and it could be their responsibility.
Councilmember Hall asked how long from start to finish this consultant study would
take. Larry Daniels replied that the actual evaluations is getting to know the job
descriptions and doing the evaluations which can be done in a month to six weeks.
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There are other aspects involved such as reviewing the salary schedules, implementa-
tion of these schedules and training the internal staff, because once the consultant
leaves it is important that the internal staff can maintain the system. Getting an
outside consultant involved not only affects the impartiality but also the
technology.
Councilmember Hall asked Mr. Daniels if he had a copy of another study that the
Council could review. Mr. Daniels replied that he had not brought one with him.
He commented that he had done the City of Bellevue.
Councilmember Dwyer stated that he didn't like the idea of having an outside con-
sultant. The only major advantage he could see was that the receptivity of the
people affected by the survey would be increased if done by an outside consultant.
While that is not an irrelevant factor, he said the cost of $15,000 which is just a
little over 50 cents for every person who lives in the City, he thought if they
went one by one to the people who live in Edmonds and asked for 50 cents so they
could hire an outside person to conduct a survey so the employees would feel better
about it, they would say that is not how they expected their money and their City
to be managed. Councilmember Dwyer said that he was not going to vote to spend
$15,000 to do this survey.
Councilmember Wilson commented that he basically felt the same way as Councilmember
Dwyer. He fundamentally feels that the Management Team has the expertise and the
responsibility to handle this themselves.
Councilmember Hail stated that she also felt the same. She feels the City has all
the elements internally and thinks that Pat LeMay would have the same amount of
work with a consultant to help him and work with him. The Mayor had indicated that
he was going to have this study done and she thinks they should wait and do it
internally, and hopefully the staff will feel comfortable with this. She said the
Council should not have to bear the burden of a time frame that the Council has
told the administra- tion to deal with. She understood it to be a team effort and
would feel more comfortable if it was dealt with internally.
No motion was made and this topic was considered closed.
COUNCILMEMBER DWYER MOVED, AND THE MOTION WAS SECONDED, TO HAVE MINUTES MADE OF THIS
MEETING FROM THE TAPE.
The Council adjourned to the respective committee meetings.
JACQUEIMNE4G. PARRET , City Clerk L U A H LL, Counci member
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